The BIG water to air HX has landed

[pybyr]

The big water-to-air heat exchanger- roughly 27x27 4 row, using 5/8 tubing within the fins, and 1.5 headers, from Nationwide Coils (mentioned in a prior post of mine) is now in the cellar.

Before anyone wonders what the heck I am doing with such a big coil, my goal is to move lots of BTUs without needing a lot of airflow, and even when my big tank is running towards the low end of its storage temperature range.

Considering the quality and scale, It really didn't cost all that much more than a dinky water --> air coil from the cut-price outlets, and I have a lot more confidence that it will last a long time, and that I will never need to wonder if I need to go out and buy a bigger one.

Here's a photo:

 

[Redox]

Wow, that IS a serious chunk of copper and aluminum. What did it cost, if you don't mind me asking.

Chris

 

[pybyr]

here's a better view of the now-uncrated 70 pounds of drool-worthy heavy-metal-excess water to air heat exchanger--

Redox- I'll PM you the pricing- not cheap, but on a "worth per dollar basis" it was a very good deal, and I found the mfgr Precision Coils and their suggested vendor Ross at Nationwide Coils excellent and very patient with my questions on really optimizing this thing so that it will work even when my big storage is down towards the lower temperature range-

PS, in a minute I am going to also post some more "magnetic porn" of my big 409 stainless tank, which made it off of the flatbed, and into the cellar, in sub-assemblies at least, today.

 

[jebatty]

Good idea to try a large hx with low air flow to extract heat out of low temp water without too much air draft. Will be very interested to see how this works.

In my shop I have a unit heater with a typical high speed fan. I use it with water temp down to 110 and still extract very usable heat. Time to try a motor speed control on the fan to see how it works with lower air flow.

 

[pybyr]

Good idea to try a large hx with low air flow to extract heat out of low temp water without too much air draft. Will be very interested to see how this works.

In my shop I have a unit heater with a typical high speed fan. I use it with water temp down to 110 and still extract very usable heat. Time to try a motor speed control on the fan to see how it works with lower air flow.

thanks for the feedback and ideas, Jim.

as to speed - controllable motors, do you or anyone else know anything about the "Evergreen" motor which I guess is a spin off of the GE ECM now done by Regal Beloit- but specifically meant for retrofits.

www.evergreenmotor.com

it seems like a really interesting idea if the cost isn't crushing

 

[Redox]

That's an interesting link, Trevor. My radar missed that one.

GE has had their ECM out for about a dozen years and every OEM that is advertising "variable speed" is using it. I haven't found any competition for it yet. Evergreen doesn't say who makes the motor, but they have a credit on the website to GE, so I suspect that it really is a GE sold to the replacement market. My guess is that the R&D;for such a thing is prohibitive and nobody else is interested in it. I also think the cost is going to be very prohibitive. I checked wit one of our vendors who can get me the motor wholesale and it runs almost $300 for just the motor with power electronics. I suspect that then you would need some kind of controller to tell it how fast to run, but still, thats a lot of coin. Then, there is the liability in performing a conversion on an older furnace or air handler that may then start to malfunction from the decreased airflow. Really to benefit from variable airflow, you need a variable or staged burner or compressor (AC or heat pump).

I also tried the dealer locator on Evergreen's web sit and couldn't find any. I tried a few zip codes around here as well as the midwest and New England, and no response. Maybe just startup problems with a new company, but I don't see a huge market for this.

I would love to replace my direct drive furnace motor with a 3 phase 48 frame that can be hooked to a speed drive, but I haven't found one yet. Why is it nobody makes the stuff I think of? :roll: With all the intelligence they are putting in drives these days, you could really go some place. If your furnace is belt driven, you should be able to find a 3 phase motor to replace the existing motor and add a VFD set to control discharge temperature. But be prepared to pay for it; a decent drive is going to cost something north of $500. For what you want to do, a triac/SCR type controller is probably a lot more cost effective.

Chris

 

[pybyr]

That's an interesting link, Trevor. My radar missed that one.

GE has had their ECM out for about a dozen years and every OEM that is advertising "variable speed" is using it. I haven't found any competition for it yet. Evergreen doesn't say who makes the motor, but they have a credit on the website to GE, so I suspect that it really is a GE sold to the replacement market. My guess is that the R&D;for such a thing is prohibitive and nobody else is interested in it. I also think the cost is going to be very prohibitive. I checked wit one of our vendors who can get me the motor wholesale and it runs almost $300 for just the motor with power electronics. I suspect that then you would need some kind of controller to tell it how fast to run, but still, thats a lot of coin. Then, there is the liability in performing a conversion on an older furnace or air handler that may then start to malfunction from the decreased airflow. Really to benefit from variable airflow, you need a variable or staged burner or compressor (AC or heat pump).

I also tried the dealer locator on Evergreen's web sit and couldn't find any. I tried a few zip codes around here as well as the midwest and New England, and no response. Maybe just startup problems with a new company, but I don't see a huge market for this.

I would love to replace my direct drive furnace motor with a 3 phase 48 frame that can be hooked to a speed drive, but I haven't found one yet. Why is it nobody makes the stuff I think of? :roll: With all the intelligence they are putting in drives these days, you could really go some place. If your furnace is belt driven, you should be able to find a 3 phase motor to replace the existing motor and add a VFD set to control discharge temperature. But be prepared to pay for it; a decent drive is going to cost something north of $500. For what you want to do, a triac/SCR type controller is probably a lot more cost effective.

Chris

I already looked into a 3 phase with VFD and bumbled across the Evergreen in the process of doing so-and it sounds like it will actually, maybe, make more sense for this application than a VFD + high efficiency 3 phase motor in the right size and frame for my belt drive blower

...anyways...

Regal Beloit, who makes and markets the Evergreen, bought the ECM sub-set of GE's business from GE several years ago, with the rights to keep using GE's name for their ECM products.

They already have a direct drive like you are looking for,

I just do not know whether they have the belt drive that I need

call 'em; you may get to it before I do, and if you do, please ask while you are at it about, and let me know about, any belt drive ones that they have ready or in the pipeline or want some REALLY enthusiastic and very patient beta-testers for-- I could bore and regale you with the details of the various technologies I've fooled with far outside the bounds of short-term payback, but suffice it to say that I am a glutton for punishment in trying to test and use new useful technologies.

 

[Redox]

That's funny! I have VFDs but can't find a motor to replace a direct drive. I'll swap your belt drive for a direct drive in my furnace!

I see from their website that they are also making small frame ECMs for draft fans and other applications. What I can't find is a dealer for them. I have access to the OEM motors that are presumably cheaper and can't justify the cost. The furnace runs so little I stopped worrying about it. One day, I will put together the variable speed heat pump and then interest will increase.

I suspect that they will not be introducing a belt drive motor as that is such a small and diminishing market. If you already have belt drive, I'd go VFD.

Sorry to drive this OT; nice coil!

Chris

 

[pybyr]

That's funny! I have VFDs but can't find a motor to replace a direct drive. I'll swap your belt drive for a direct drive in my furnace!

I see from their website that they are also making small frame ECMs for draft fans and other applications. What I can't find is a dealer for them. I have access to the OEM motors that are presumably cheaper and can't justify the cost. The furnace runs so little I stopped worrying about it. One day, I will put together the variable speed heat pump and then interest will increase.

I suspect that they will not be introducing a belt drive motor as that is such a small and diminishing market. If you already have belt drive, I'd go VFD.

Sorry to drive this OT; nice coil!

Chris

I was BORN _OT) [that's a long personal tangent that I'll skip] and life has taught me- at every turn- that that's where innovation lies, so no apologies needed!

call 'em- I've traded voice mails with them and they seem like good folks, I am just blessed or cursed with trying to chase too many other loose ends at the same time

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Just for comparison; Heil/Carrier HWCF-1900 coil, 21" x x18", rated around 56K BTU @ 1200 cfm...$235.

 

[OFS2]

Hi, we carry a full line of 3 row coils. You can see them here:
(broken link removed to http://www.outdoorfurnacesupply.com/forced-water-coils-c-12.html?osCsid=86a761da4dee0dea9f44eaca112b279b)

In our experience a 3 row coil works very well in every application we have dealt with. Ideally you want to maximize the heat exchanger area in the plenum.