The value proposition? Englander vs. more expensive (Quadrafire / Harman)

[refiners_fire]

I've been reading lots on this forum and have found many good tips.

Here's the deal, I'm looking at a pellet stove for the house. From what I can tell, Englander stoves are fairly rugged and provide incredible service after the sale - and seem to be second to none in the industry for their service. The more expensive stoves are perhaps built better (maybe?), depending on the model - could be all cast iron, and might be a bit prettier but may not have the service. On the other hand, it seems both Englander stoves and the more expensive ones have their "issues."

Using rough dollars, I'm looking at the Englander 25EP ($2k), the quadrafire Mt. Vernon ($4k), and maybe the Harman P series (maybe 61a) ($4k).

So here's my question: What is the value proposition of the more expensive stoves?

I've seen a lot of "you'll get what you pay for" - comments. Can someone please substantiate? I've seen lots of positive and negative comments on all brands of stoves and would like to know what the additional $2k would get me.

As for my house, (excluding the basement) the first and second floor have about 2200 sq feet. The floor plan is fairly open with a walkway on the second floor visible from the first floor kitchen. I'd like to put the pellet stove where I currently have a zero clearance gas log set. From what I understand I would line the 6 inch gas pipe with a 4 inch insulated pipe for the exhaust of the pellet stove.

If you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. Thank you for your time.

 

[Wilbur Feral]

First, make sure the stove is quiet enough for you. Some can be noisy, but I've no idea about the Englander. As for value, I have a Mt Vernon AE and do like it, but I don't know that I would buy another one new. We bought this one bc my wife really liked the way it looks, and it was recommended by the dealer. Knowing what I know now, I would shop more and consider a less expensive stove, as long as it was quiet and had a decent reputation. Finally, watch out for poorly trained / lazy dealers, which are abundant. "You don't need an OAK" is the first sign of trouble. Also, ask about pellet availability and pricing of current inventory (you might get a free ton when you buy, but what does the next one cost)?

Stay away from the ultra cheap, off-brand models but otherwise do some shopping. I'm not convinced the more expensive stoves are worth their exhorbitant premium, despite owning one. An off-season buy of a used one from someone tired of lugging pellets is probably the best bet.

 

[SwineFlue]

The 25EP is a 25000 BTU output (roughly 32000 BTU input) stove. It would be equivalent to a Santa Fe and maybe a P-35, not the Mt Vernon & P61. Aside from more heat output, the MtV and P61 offer more automation and are multi-fuel.

 

[dhall28]

this is all my opinion, i have very little experience with englander stoves, but I know what I like about harmans that I feel sets them apart.
The use of the ESP and room sensor probe which tells the control board the temperature of the exhaust gasses and the room temp by one degree F increments, harman has really used and taken advantage of this information that the control board receives like no other manufacture has i believe. Looks like not in the case of the 25ep but most pellet stoves only have a snap disc that tells the stove above or below a certain set temp but by how much the control board cant tell which takes away a ton of opportunities for fine tuning things.
They are a bottom fed stove which has some definitive advantages, pushing ash out of the pot and allowing very low burns with out fear of losing the fire. Bottom feed stove just have a more consistent flame.
Also harman has recommended a UPS (interruptible power supply) where the control board is protected from power surges and in the event of a power outage recognizes it is running off the ups and safely shuts down the stove keep smoke out of the house, if the power returns it will decided whether to continue running or relight based on the ESP temp. On start up after the initial feed of pellets on the newer control boards they pulse the auger motor on, not to feed pellets but to just jostle the pellets a little, they found this helped ignite the pellets slightly faster.
i could go on but there are just so many other small things i think they do well and do right i think they add up to being worth it. they are not for everyone and everyone's situation. also i am under no disillusion that they are perfect because they aren't, if they were i would not have had a job for two years fixing them. However i worked on harman, quad, enviro, country flame, bosca, breckwell, and thelins and if i had the money and it was going in my house (not a workshop or garage) i would buy a harman.


OAKs are a tool that used correctly is beneficial but like everything it has its pluses and minuses and so therefore is situational specific, so a dealer that doesn't take into account your situation on whether you need one and says you shouldn't have one is just as bad as one who says every single person needs one, no exceptions. again this is all my opinion.

 

[altarr]

you are probably on the verge of a flamewar (haha) but as someone who has owned both, I would like to give you my experience with them....

everything dhall28 has said I pretty much agree with. Harman burns everything and anything I put in there. Period. It burns it cleanly too.

The stove has several features which far and away exceed anything on the Englander. The simple fact that the stove will light and extinguish itself based on a temperature you set it a significant pellet saving feature.

Daily maintenance is an absolute breeze, so is monthly (one ton) maintenance. It REALLY could not be easier.

Now the Englander (at least the two I had).

Yes, the service is great...once you get to talk to someone. I am aware that people who work for this company are active contributors to this forum and that is fantastic. I have spoken with one of them and he has troubleshot my englander stove...he was great at it. But here is the issue. During the heating season they are SLAMMED. Part of the reason is staffing, the other part of the reason is that these things are always broken. When you buy a Harman, chances are you are purchasing through a local dealer and your warranty will cover in home service. Even when the warranty is over, you always have the choice of having someone knowledgeable with your stove to come and fix it. With englander, you just dont get that.

The overall construction of the englander stoves is troublesome as well. The way you access the heat exchanger does not lend itself to easy (or at all) cleaning. This leads to extreme air flow issues. Air flow issues lead to dirty burns. Dirty burns means little heat and cold nights. No amount of attention or work can really overcome this design flaw. With the englander I was doing the equivalent of a harman monthly cleaning EVERY SINGLE DAY. Even then the stove would be burning dirty within 24 hours. This wasnt just a single stove either, this problem was across both of my englander stoves.

In the end, did the englanders save me money over oil? sure. but they also caused 2 chimney fires, constant aggravation, blew through bags of pellets, an ash pan fire (which almost killed my pregnant wife one morning at 3am) etc etc. Switching to pellets with the englander was just way too much work/effort for the return they gave me. When I would show people the stove and answer their questions truthfully, not too many people were enthused at the work required to save money on oil. When I show them my harman, they ask for the dealers number.

Bottom line. I have owned three pellet stoves in 4 years. If I had owned the Harman first, I would still be on number 1. That is over 4k worth of pellet stoves that I have simply replaced.

If you cant buy the harman this year, save your money until you can. You may have an ok experience in the end with the englander, but I promise you, your experience will be an absolute dream with harman.

 

[alternativeheat]

Even within the Harman line the P series excels at easy cleaning. Who wants nightmares and a cold house when your stove conks out cause it's stuffed up ? The Harman P doesn't pug up to begin with. Sat morning is my weekly cleaning day which depending on pellets used might be every other sat morning. It's a matter of just brushing down the firebox, vac out, dump the ash pan. There are a couple of access hatches to remove and vac out ( real easy to get to right in the ash door chamber. I read in here about stoves with trapped ash that won't run or lazy flames from bad draft because of ash in some remote place you can't get at, dragging stoves outside, blowing them out. Not with a P series Harman, you don't need to do any of that. No, my Sat routine I have down to about ten minutes after shut down, then it's back on again. All stoves make heat when they are running right but not all run right and some need super bunches of attention to keep them running in the first place. Still with all that said, I can't speak for or against Englanders, never used one.

 

[Phoenix Hatchling]

Harman for me was the value choice, simply for its low maintenance and ease of use. As others have stated, they are well thought out, simple to work our clean, very well built, and aesthetically pleasing. A simple rap of knuckles on some less expensive models, and fit and finish comparisons will lead to a more focused choice. Love my Harman, and glad I made the choice I did!

 

[Jason845845]

I have just started using my Englander 25-ep. I love the heat it puts out, but I can already see the cleaning is going to be a daily task. I am already considering getting a p43 next summer, however, I have seen Mike from ESW answering tech questions on Thanksgiving day, which is something you will not get from Harman.

A new Mercedes will get you to work and back, but so will a 1996 Toyota Corolla. It's up to you to decide what is important as far as initial investment vs. ongoing maintenance.

 

[Phoenix Hatchling]

I have just started using my Englander 25-ep. I love the heat it puts out, but I can already see the cleaning is going to be a daily task. I am already considering getting a p43 next summer, however, I have seen Mike from ESW answering tech questions on Thanksgiving day, which is something you will not get from Harman.

A new Mercedes will get you to work and back, but so will a 1996 Toyota Corolla. It's up to you to decide what is important as far as initial investment vs. ongoing maintenance.

If you want to compare new to used, get the used Mercedes (Harman). That would give infinitely higher value!

 

[dlehneman]

I now have 2 Enganders, a PAH and an EP. I was strongly considering a Harmon for my second stove but with how good my PAH has been to me, and the fact the Harmon would've really stretched my budget, I picked up a used EP at an incredible value. Keep in mind I paid under $1000 each for them. In general I am very happy with them and have no problems recommending them to most people (depending on their situation). Here is my input from my experience with these 2 stoves:
Pros:
Price! They put out great heat and are very reliable. Getting replacement parts is easy, even Lowe's and Home Depot sell them, although I haven't had the need. They will control the heat very accurately when you use them with a t-stat in a central location of your house. They can be run in on/off mode (auto ignite and extinguish) or high/low mode, so plenty versatile.
Cons:
Cleaning...if you don't want to be hands on, these are not the stoves for you. I clean daily, now I don't have to (I'm obsessed with it being clean and running perfect) but you certainly wouldn't want to ignore it for days on end or longer. I guarantee that the vast majority of people who have problems with them simply aren't taking care of them. The daily cleaning only takes about 5 minutes though and keeps it running great. The thorough cleanings are maybe once every 4-6 weeks when your in peak heating season. Some of the areas that need to be cleaned when you do the thorough cleaning are not easy to access.
Noise: I wish they were quieter, and I'm sure this is an area where more expensive stoves excel.

As far as value goes, I think it's hard to dispute that Englander is a great value (at least when purchased at a decent price, such as from AM/FM energy). The used Harman's that I looked at were all $2500 or more, making them still 2.5 times what I paid for my stoves! Whether that's worth it to you or not, is probably more dependent on your finances and expectations than anything. I will say that if budget were no issue, I would most likely buy a Harman to reduce noise and time spend cleaning.

 

[allied35]

What about an enviro m55? I bought one three years ago for $2600 it burns everything you throw at it, I only clean it once a week. Runs on a thermostat. I do not have experience with Harmon's or englanders but my inlaws have a MtV and it seems like a lot of work to keep it clean, they clean the fire box out at least twice a day. They do burn 100% corn though...

Good luck!

 

[Jason845845]

If you want to compare new to used, get the used Mercedes (Harman). That would give infinitely higher value!

I would never buy either of those used and out of warranty

 

[Harvey Schneider]

I own both a Quad MVAE and an England 25PDVC.

The MVAE heats the first floor of my house. It is the quietest pellet stove on the market, efficient (86%), low maintanence, and esthetically pleasing. I have no regrets about my choice or the cost of the stove.

Based on my experience with the MVAE I decided that I should get a second pellet stove to heat my basement workshop. The shop was too cold for me to work in during the winter. I purchased a used (actually badly abused) England and totally cleaned and rebuilt it. The 25 PDVC does exactly what I wanted. It adequately heats my workshop. It needs manual cleaning every time I light it, and is much louder than my MVAE, but those are both acceptable in my workshop. I have no regrets with my bargain basement pellet stove. At $300, it cost me more in installation materials than the cost of the stove itself.

My point is that each of these stoves has it's place and if you choose the right stove for the place, you will be happy with it.

I remember an economic analysis that showed that the two most cost effective cars (total cost of ownership) were the VW bug and the Rolls Royce. Obviously there is more to making a purchase decision than just cost effectiveness.

 

[SKOAL MAN]

Do your self a favor, with the $4500 you would spend on a Harman. Go out and buy the 2200 sqft Englander new $1500, and spend the other $3000 on a mini split heat pump! Use the heat pump until it gets too cold and use the pellet stove when you want some quick heat or its too cold for the mini split to work efficiently!

 

[refiners_fire]

In the end, did the englanders save me money over oil? sure. but they also caused 2 chimney fires, constant aggravation, blew through bags of pellets, an ash pan fire (which almost killed my pregnant wife one morning at 3am) etc etc. Switching to pellets with the englander was just way too much work/effort for the return they gave me. When I would show people the stove and answer their questions truthfully, not too many people were enthused at the work required to save money on oil. When I show them my harman, they ask for the dealers number.

Bottom line. I have owned three pellet stoves in 4 years. If I had owned the Harman first, I would still be on number 1. That is over 4k worth of pellet stoves that I have simply replaced.

If you cant buy the harman this year, save your money until you can. You may have an ok experience in the end with the englander, but I promise you, your experience will be an absolute dream with harman.

Thank you for the reply. This is one of the best explanations of the value proposition that I've read, to date. I will be saving up and investing in a Harman when the time comes.

 

[refiners_fire]

What about an enviro m55? I bought one three years ago for $2600 it burns everything you throw at it, I only clean it once a week. Runs on a thermostat. I do not have experience with Harmon's or englanders but my inlaws have a MtV and it seems like a lot of work to keep it clean, they clean the fire box out at least twice a day. They do burn 100% corn though...

Good luck!

Thank you for your insight. I hadn't considered an enviro stove. I will be doing some additional research on the enviro brand!

 

[festerw]

I've run an Englander 25pdvc for 7 years now and it's run 24/7 all winter. Yes I've replaced a few motors but they were all still running just much noisier than I thought they should be.

They aren't the cleanest or quietest stoves but they'll put out heat and save money over oil. Cleaning isn't terrible, I scrape out the pot when I refill the hopper with the stove still running and once a week take about 20 minutes to give it a good vacuum, clean out the vent every month or so. It uses about a bag a day to keep my 1200 square feet around 70-80 degrees in pretty much any outdoor temperature.

If I were buying a new stove it would be another Englander because I can't justify another $2k for a stove that will do the same thing.

 

[xSpecBx]

Keep in mind what dealers you have local to you as well as service technicians. You dont want to have a problem and have no way of getting parts or service.

 

[Peterfield]

Thank you for your insight. I hadn't considered an enviro stove. I will be doing some additional research on the enviro brand!

I just shopped for stoves and had it narrowed down between an Enviro M55 insert versus the Harman Accentra 52i insert. Very close in capabilities, each with its own idiosyncrasies (bottom feeder versus top; burn pot auger versus not). Liked them both but the the price of the 52i was considerably less than the Enviro so that and a few other reasons, I went with the Harman.

 

[SKOAL MAN]

you are probably on the verge of a flamewar (haha) but as someone who has owned both, I would like to give you my experience with them....

everything dhall28 has said I pretty much agree with. Harman burns everything and anything I put in there. Period. It burns it cleanly too.

The stove has several features which far and away exceed anything on the Englander. The simple fact that the stove will light and extinguish itself based on a temperature you set it a significant pellet saving feature.

Daily maintenance is an absolute breeze, so is monthly (one ton) maintenance. It REALLY could not be easier.

Now the Englander (at least the two I had).

Yes, the service is great...once you get to talk to someone. I am aware that people who work for this company are active contributors to this forum and that is fantastic. I have spoken with one of them and he has troubleshot my englander stove...he was great at it. But here is the issue. During the heating season they are SLAMMED. Part of the reason is staffing, the other part of the reason is that these things are always broken. When you buy a Harman, chances are you are purchasing through a local dealer and your warranty will cover in home service. Even when the warranty is over, you always have the choice of having someone knowledgeable with your stove to come and fix it. With englander, you just dont get that.

The overall construction of the englander stoves is troublesome as well. The way you access the heat exchanger does not lend itself to easy (or at all) cleaning. This leads to extreme air flow issues. Air flow issues lead to dirty burns. Dirty burns means little heat and cold nights. No amount of attention or work can really overcome this design flaw. With the englander I was doing the equivalent of a harman monthly cleaning EVERY SINGLE DAY. Even then the stove would be burning dirty within 24 hours. This wasnt just a single stove either, this problem was across both of my englander stoves.

In the end, did the englanders save me money over oil? sure. but they also caused 2 chimney fires, constant aggravation, blew through bags of pellets, an ash pan fire (which almost killed my pregnant wife one morning at 3am) etc etc. Switching to pellets with the englander was just way too much work/effort for the return they gave me. When I would show people the stove and answer their questions truthfully, not too many people were enthused at the work required to save money on oil. When I show them my harman, they ask for the dealers number.

Bottom line. I have owned three pellet stoves in 4 years. If I had owned the Harman first, I would still be on number 1. That is over 4k worth of pellet stoves that I have simply replaced.

If you cant buy the harman this year, save your money until you can. You may have an ok experience in the end with the englander, but I promise you, your experience will be an absolute dream with harman.

Never saw a stove cause a chimney fire, neglect causes a chimney fire! If I had 2 chimney fires and a stove almost killed my wife and unborn child the first thing I wouldn't do is go out and buy another pellet stove! I'm a redneck but this is even beyond my logic! WOW!!

 

[stillersnut]

Regular maintenance will help eliminate the worry of a chimney fire. I've owned the "high end $$" stoves, but Love my budget Englander PAH. Its easy to clean, parts are easy to get, a no frills utilitarian heat.

 

[Harvey Schneider]

Regular maintenance will help eliminate the worry of a chimney fire.

Burning stove at a low simmer creates creosote. Even with a clean, well maintained stove you can put lots of creosote up the vent.

 

[stillersnut]

It's been my experience that a well matained and clean stove has the ability to run, even at low temps, without creosote build up. Why else are we given the ability to run at low settings?

 

[Harvey Schneider]

It's been my experience that a well matained and clean stove has the ability to run, even at low temps, without creosote build up. Why else are we given the ability to run at low settings?

Burning wood at low temperatures makes creosote. That's just the way wood is.

 

[stillersnut]

Heating with wood for decades, it's been my experience that, unseasoned wood, lack of air for combustion, and cool flue temps cause creosote build up. Since pellets are tumble dried & moisture controlled you've elemenated two causes, this leaves air/combustion. Which can be greatly reduced or eliminated with a clean stove.