Thermal Storage Technology

[chuck172]

Very interesting, has anyone ever heard of this?
http://www.termoventiler.se/default.asp?webb_ID=110&webbsida_ID=71

 

[Hansson]

I have the Laddomat 21 in my system.
I load my tanks from the topp with 96-97 celisus water.
You can change the thermostat in the laddomat 21 to 72,78.84.88 celisus.

My first post.Nice forum!

 

[chuck172]

Welcome Hansson, I'm sure we will benefit from your knowledge and experience. thanks.

 

[Hansson]

Here is another Swedish manufacture of a charging unit.
(broken link removed to http://www.esbe.se/products/?prodid=4034)

99% of all systems are pressurized here.

 

[Hansson]

This is a picture of the laddomat 21 when the storage tanks are getting full.

The other picture is on the thermometer in the top off storage tank when they are fully loaded

 

[trehugr]

Chuck, have you found a US distributor yet ?

 

[pybyr]

I don't have the time right now to dig deeper, but from a quick stroll around the ESBE website, it looks like their US operation is via Danfoss, which definitely has a presence in this country- maybe we can connect the dots that way? Also, the Laddomats are depicted in some of the literature of New Horizon (importer of the EKOs) so perhaps he can get those?

Hansen- when you say "pressurized" is there a normal kpa/psi that people try to achieve over there, and if so, how is it chosen?

Thanks

 

[pybyr]

PS- Hansson- I am able to follow the way that these "charging units" are used to maximize the way energy is transferred from boiler to storage, but over there, do you folks also have a way to draw heat from the boiler directly to the dwelling? If so, can you give us a sense of how the plumbing and controls interface with/ relate to these charging units? Sometimes I might come home and need to fire the boiler for quick heat even though I may have been away long enough that there is no useful heat in the storage, in the short term at least.

Thanks!

 

[Hansson]

PS- Hansson- I am able to follow the way that these "charging units" are used to maximize the way energy is transferred from boiler to storage, but over there, do you folks also have a way to draw heat from the boiler directly to the dwelling? If so, can you give us a sense of how the plumbing and controls interface with/ relate to these charging units? Sometimes I might come home and need to fire the boiler for quick heat even though I may have been away long enough that there is no useful heat in the storage, in the short term at least.

Thanks!

Hello
This is a standard installation in sweden

The pump in the laddomat starts when the smoke reach a temperature.

The thing in the tank "VVB" is where you get the water for shower and so on..

It looks like this often.Made of copper
(broken image removed)


You have usually 2.
One in the bottom of the tank for preheating of the incoming cold water.And one inte top
Like this

Sorry for my bad language

 

[Hansson]

http://www.acaso.se/english/produktblad/TERMOVAR Ladd-paket EN 0502.pdf

Here is another charging unit

 

[pybyr]

Hansson-- thanks for all this good information- and make no apology for your language -- I couldn't even try Swedish!!

 

[DaveBP]

The Termovar loading unit is the one being sold by Tarm USA as an extra cost ( $600) accessory for their boilers.

 

[mpilihp]

Hello, I understand the idea of stratafcation in the storage tank but I do not see how using this device between the cold intake on the wood boiler and the cold exit of the storage tank provides better stratafication. It looks as though its being used to manage the return temp into the wood boiler which using a threeway valve is pretty much a standard, here anyhow.

Thanks for the lesson to whomever responds!

Phil

 

[Ron Lloyd]

I agree with mpilihp. I don’t see much difference between a mixing valve and this loading unit in terms of the end result.

Ron

 

[Hansson]

I agree to. they are small differences.
Its more important to get god stratafcation when you unload the tank

 

[chuck172]

Hansson, You're two tanks total 530gallons?

 

[pybyr]

Hansson- as Chuck is asking- can you give us a sense of what is considered "optimum" size storage tank volume (relative to building and /or boiler size) there in Scandanavia, where you're so far ahead of us on these technologies

thanks again

 

[mpilihp]

Hi Guys thanks, Reading about it they made it sound like it was inline between the Boiler output and the top/charge input of the storage tank and it was monitoring hte input and regulating its flow based on the temp or something.... I didnt picture it going where typically there is a 3-way valve

~ Phil

 

[chuck172]

Hansson, If you look through the topics in this forum about storage, you will get an idea of how relatively new this technolgy is here.
In America we use pressurized, non-pressurized, heat-exchangers pex, copper, ss plate. Sometimes we use big milk cans, septic tanks, and giant propane tanks as big as buses.
We bury tanks, put them under decks, build seperate out-buildings for them, put them in our basements.
We even stand giant propane tanks up, and tie them in bundles.
They look like atomic missles sitting in their silos ready to launch.
And piping! I think what we consider a simple piping layout would make your head spin.

So you can see, if you have any tried and true helpful hints on this subject, it would be appreciated.

 

[Hansson]

hello
Its hard to explain when you dont have the words

I have total 530 gallons of tank.
I have seen that you have very lager tanks compare to sweden.

Now in the summer the heat in my tanks last 7-8days.
From 100 degree to 40 in the topp of the tank 7-8 days

When you have at boiler and want a tank thats fits it you do like this.
Firearea in the boiler liters*18= smallest tank for your boiler.
Ex my Bax innova 30 135 Liters in firing area * 18 =2430 liters is the smalest a tank shuld be.

They are more ways to get the tank size.
Then you calculate on the house maximum energy need.
This is to hard for me to explain :-(

 

[Eric Johnson]

I think you're doing OK, Hansson. Your English is a lot better than most American's Swedish.

How far are you from Jönköping?

 

[Hansson]

I think you're doing OK, Hansson. Your English is a lot better than most American's Swedish.

How far are you from Jönköping?

About 370 miles.

Have you been at Skogs Elmia exhibit?

 

[chuck172]

I've never heard of your stove. I downloaded its manual and the manufacturer doesn't recommend the use of Oak wood as the only source of wood for long periods of time because of its high acid content.
Interesting.

 

[Hansson]

where you're so far ahead of us on these technologies

thanks again

I dont think we are far ahead of you on these technologies.

 

[Eric Johnson]

I think you're doing OK, Hansson. Your English is a lot better than most American's Swedish.

How far are you from Jönköping?

About 370 miles.

Have you been at Skogs Elmia exhibit?

Yes, I went to Elmia Wood about 4 years ago and the World Bioenergy Fair this past spring. If I can fit it into the budget, I'll be back again next summer for Elmia Wood again. And I hate to disagree, but based on what I saw at the World Bioenergy Fair, you guys are way ahead of us.

For example, we don't even have access to residential chip burners on this side of the Atlantic (yet), and wood gasification is just catching on. I drooled all over the exhibit hall floor when I saw the various boilers on display in Jönköping.

Anyway, a belated "welcome" to the Boiler Room.