Thermovoltaic cells developing to supplement the grid

[begreen]

Progress is being made in the development of thermovoltaic cells that can work at very high temperatures to convert thermal energy into power. Lab tests look promising. The next step is to develop a prototype to test at scale. If successful they could replace steam turbines with the advantage of no moving parts. The applications for grid power storage are very interesting.

Researchers have developed a new heat engine with no moving parts

Engineers at MIT and the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) have developed a heat engine with no moving parts that can fully decarbonize the power grid.

interestingengineering.com

 

[SpaceBus]

I was hoping this would show up here.

 

[EbS-P]

I spent some time time thinking about this. The test just used a tungsten heater. Scaling up you really need to be burning something to hit the 3000-4000 F temps the need. That’s really high. Think near direct flame impingement. Still burning fossil fuels.
combined cycle power generation has an efficiency that is over 40%. It’s a good idea but I’m not buying stock in it yet. Personally I think the operating is too high but I really know zilch about this.

 

[ABMax24]

I spent some time time thinking about this. The test just used a tungsten heater. Scaling up you really need to be burning something to hit the 3000-4000 F temps the need. That’s really high. Think near direct flame impingement. Still burning fossil fuels.
combined cycle power generation has an efficiency that is over 40%. It’s a good idea but I’m not buying stock in it yet. Personally I think the operating is too high but I really know zilch about this.

I was thinking the same. GE's current generation of combined cycle plants are hitting 63% efficiency. I don't see combined cycle natural gas powerplants going anywhere anytime soon, in fact I think a bunch more are going to be built in coming years.

 

[EbS-P]

I was thinking the same. GE's current generation of combined cycle plants are hitting 63% efficiency. I don't see combined cycle natural gas powerplants going anywhere anytime soon, in fact I think a bunch more are going to be built in coming years.

I found this comparison interesting.

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[begreen]

I spent some time time thinking about this. The test just used a tungsten heater. Scaling up you really need to be burning something to hit the 3000-4000 F temps the need. That’s really high. Think near direct flame impingement. Still burning fossil fuels.
combined cycle power generation has an efficiency that is over 40%. It’s a good idea but I’m not buying stock in it yet. Personally I think the operating is too high but I really know zilch about this.

I think the temp setpoint is variable, but this design is geared toward solar furnaces that operate at very high temps. The idea is to store that heat in graphite to then be converted to power when the sun is not shining.

 

[stoveliker]

Why did they choose graphite?

It's lighter than water and has a lower heat capacity (6 times lower, if I remember correctly), meaning you need a lot larger volume (that you need to insulate). Moreover getting the heat OUT of the graphite is tough as compared to water that can flow.
And if it's only because the higher temperatures graphite can store (because water boils at 100 C), then the insulation needs to be that much better too because the losses are higher for a higher T storage. And "flushing out" the heat from the graphite with gas to make getting the heat out already lowers the efficiency because one gets (more and) lower temperature gas out of the graphite "heat battery".

It's nice, and a good direction. But the next step scaling up - I don't think we are there yet, for a economically sensible system.

 

[bigealta]

Well this can do it. Can get to 3000K internal. Wife has a few shares in this Company for many years. Some say it's not real. I hope it is. Anyway the Developer owner is a brilliant guy. Brilliant light power.

SunCell Cavity Blackbody Radiator | Brilliant Light Power

 

[stoveliker]

Well this can do it. Can get to 3000K internal. Wife has a few shares in this Company for many years. Some say it's not real. I hope it is. Anyway the Developer owner is a brilliant guy. Brilliant light power.

SunCell Cavity Blackbody Radiator | Brilliant Light Power

I would get your money out now for as long as it's still possible (worth something).
This guy does not have a clue about physics. This will never work. Guaranteed.

See for a lay-men's piece (of which you only have to read the timeframes promised and never kept):

Warning Signs For Energy Technology Investors 3: Yes, They Can Be That Stupid

The story of Blacklight Power is a startling case demonstrating how Cleantech investors can go seriously astray. The founder, Randell L. Mills, claimed in 1991 to have refuted quantum mechanics and developed a new energy source relying on previously unknown “hydrinos,” and received tens of...

www.forbes.com

 

[bigealta]

I've been going to annual shareholder meetings for over 10 years. Well aware of the risks and Randy's promises. She inherited her shares and we are rolling the dice on this. A long shot for sure, but better than the lottery.
That article is 6 years old. Much progress since then. Well also if u bought shares when the article was written you would have been able to triple your money. So the author was wrong about the investment.

 

[stoveliker]

Claiming things inconsistent with the laws of physics is not a chance better than the lottery.
Tripling your money just means there are enough folks believing it. That's psychology.
It'll never bring in a return on investment (not in energy nor in finance), even if stocks are up at this point in time.

 

[woodgeek]

OK, I'm familiar with this tech. Its really just a form of battery for electrical energy storage.

To make a heat engine efficient, it needs the heat source to be very hot compared to the sink temperature (around 300K). There is no problem at all making heat at that temp using resistive heating. None.

Graphite is used because it is stable at very high temperatures (if it doesn't catch on fire), cheap, AND its low atomic mass and loose molecular structure give it very high specific heat per mass/volume. Its the hands down choice for a thermal storage material at high temps, just like water is a no brainer at 80°C.

In principle, such a system would have (1) no moving parts to wear out (2) no chemical reactions like a battery (and unlimited cycle life) and (3) be very scalable bc you just make the thermal mass as big as you want (and parasitic losses vanish when you scale up).

V nice in principle, bur far from ready for prime time. 40% efficiency means the 'battery' has a 40% round trip efficiency for electricity to electricity, way worse than a chemical (or flow) battery.

The article is exciting bc it is better than making hydrogen from electrolysis and turning it back into electricity using a fuel cell. That has about a 40% current efficiency also:

Hydrogen Fuel Cell Efficiency: How Does it Compare to Lithium-ion?

Hydrogen fuel cell efficiency falls short compared to lithium-ion batteries when it comes to forklift fleet; find out how in this helpful guide.

www.fluxpower.com

Similarly, compressed air energy storage (CAES) is also about 40% cycle efficiency, not counting useful waste heat.

Compressed-air energy storage - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So there you are... before saying that all three of these systems are crazy bc they have 40% efficiency, remember that that fleet of ICE vehicles you see swarming the streets world-wide has a well to wheels efficiency <25%.

As PV gets cheaper, overbuilding it by 2.5X will not be a big cost/deal. All three of these techs (heat battery/H2/CAES) will compete with each other based upon $/kWh stored.

What do I think will win? Batteries or flow batteries.

--CAES needs a very large high pressure storage tank. This is expensive, unless you have a suitable cave nearby. So its not super scalable in the same way pumped hydro is great if nature made you an elevated lake, but not if you have to build a giant tall water tank.

--I remain skeptical of Hydrogen, bc the electrolysers and fuel cells have been around for like 150 years, and they are still damned expensive. And in the end, even if they were free and 100% efficient, I still need to store a chit ton of gas at high pressure.... and its hydrogen (yikes).

--The high temp system as in this thread... cycle life is theoretically very high (bc there is no chemical change) BUT I think that is theory. In reality, these materials (and their connections) will also have to expand and contract during a temperature cycle (from 3000 to 2000 K), and engineering materials that have long SHELF (working) life at those temps is really hard. I mean, even your metal contacts are going to evaporate. Edison managed to find a filament for his light bulb that worked at those temps (but struggled famously), and 100 years later the suckers still burned out after 2000 hours.

I would support a moonshot for flow batteries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery

 

[bigealta]

Claiming things inconsistent with the laws of physics is not a chance better than the lottery.
Tripling your money just means there are enough folks believing it. That's psychology.
It'll never bring in a return on investment (not in energy nor in finance), even if stocks are up at this point in time.

You seem to be basing your judgement on Randy's personality and claims of how "easy" the final steps to commercialization would be. This was very poor judgement on his part. Do you have a complete understanding of the results of the tests he's published? Without bias from anyone else's opinion? I admit i have to believe he is not a liar and making up his results or changing them. Yes it is a huge longshot that he can scale up to longer term reliable working products, but he has put his life and about 100hours a week into this. He is a Super Smart guy and i don't think he is a scam artist. For this we are staying on this crazy train.

 

[stoveliker]

Yes, I have. I have a Physics Ph.D.
And no, I don't know his personality.

However, there is a shining recent example of what happens when one promises things beyond what is scientifically possible - Theranos. Those promises go to personality.

 

[bigealta]

Yes, I have. I have a Physics Ph.D.
And no, I don't know his personality.

However, there is a shining recent example of what happens when one promises things beyond what is scientifically possible - Theranos. Those promises go to personality.

Ok but She is a complete liar and scam artist. Randy is more like a savant a bit on the spectrum. Do you dispute the published test results? Or do you think they are falsely reported? or somehow irrelevant?

 

[bigealta]

Just to be clear - I am Very Skeptical Blacklight, Now Brilliantlight power will ever work. But i do not think it is a scam or that Randy is a scam artist (i could be wrong) but i have a pretty good BS meter after working in the "pretender, poser" movie business. His motivation is to win the noble piece prize and he clearly thinks he is on the level of Einstein. Yes he has a HUGE ego and that has kept him going for these many years. He is a fighter and extremely perseverant. He is willing and quick to change directions when the models and test results dictate so. Maybe we are blinded by the light but so be it.

If anyone has legitimate facts as to how/why published testing results are incorrect, false or irrelevant please say why. Thanks, At the very least it is someone betting their life on a long shot.

 

[EbS-P]

Timeframes longer 5 years to largish scale deployment personally don’t see the environmental value in. That said we always need to be looking further down the road. We all need to invest more in cutting edge research knowing that at least 90% of the ideas pursued won’t ever really work or won’t be be economically feasible. That doesn’t me we shouldn’t support out there ideas. We just need a diversified investment strategy.
I feel like the government funding has not scaled with the urgency for solutions. DoD funding seemed like a more reliable source. And private investment for academic research was really moved into the corporate structure and away from the university. These observations were limited to my time at Umaine and but viewed across multiple diverse areas of physics and EE.

 

[stoveliker]

Edit: this is not about the original result here, but about the brilliant light issue brought up in this thread.
(I have my doubts about the (scaled engineering) feasibility of the original result of this thread, but it seems to be solid science.)

My understanding of his proposed mechanism is that it involves hydrinos. Hydrinos are a nonexistent thing. Having a hydrogen atom with its electron below the ground state energy level is a fundamental violation of physics.

His "validation reports" are done by someone he is involved with, not an independent expert.

I am naive enough to think that most such people believe in the good they do or are aiming to do. I.e. if people try to solve a problem (energy here), I think their motivations are to be applauded.

However, when one claims something that is fundamentally incompatible with existing knowledge (i.e. not just "unknown to existing knowledge", but incompatible with), then decades of promises is not going to do it.

Given the propensity of this entity to sue physicists that question the science and engineering proposed by this entity (which is contrary to how science works: if you have a claim, one needs to be prepared to explain why a counterclaim is incorrect and propose an alternate explanation that unifies your own claim and the observations underlying the counterclaim into one picture), I am loathe to say more.

 

[bigealta]

Edit: this is not about the original result here, but about the brilliant light issue brought up in this thread.
(I have my doubts about the (scaled engineering) feasibility of the original result of this thread, but it seems to be solid science.)

My understanding of his proposed mechanism is that it involves hydrinos. Hydrinos are a nonexistent thing. Having a hydrogen atom with its electron below the ground state energy level is a fundamental violation of physics.

His "validation reports" are done by someone he is involved with, not an independent expert.

I am naive enough to think that most such people believe in the good they do or are aiming to do. I.e. if people try to solve a problem (energy here), I think their motivations are to be applauded.

However, when one claims something that is fundamentally incompatible with existing knowledge (i.e. not just "unknown to existing knowledge", but incompatible with), then decades of promises is not going to do it.

Given the propensity of this entity to sue physicists that question the science and engineering proposed by this entity (which is contrary to how science works: if you have a claim, one needs to be prepared to explain why a counterclaim is incorrect and propose an alternate explanation that unifies your own claim and the observations underlying the counterclaim into one picture), I am loathe to say more.

Yes i understand that that you have to go on a big leap to believe that hydrinos can or do exist, and that much of Quantum physics is incorrect. And believe these ideas for the basis of the brilliant light thesis to be correct or at least in the ballpark.

Or maybe he's stumbled onto something else we don't yet completely understand.
Something is happening with extreme power densities. That is pretty clear.

 

[bigealta]

I only brought up Brilliant light power because they are currently using a thermophotovoltaic SunCell. Similar to what begreen originally posted about.

 

[SpaceBus]

Yeah, Hydrinos def don't exist. There is only H2, H cations (protons), and H combined with something else.

 

[bigealta]

"Given the propensity of this entity to sue physicists that question the science and engineering proposed by this entity (which is contrary to how science works: if you have a claim, one needs to be prepared to explain why a counterclaim is incorrect and propose an alternate explanation that unifies your own claim and the observations underlying the counterclaim into one picture), I am loathe to say more."

I don't know about any lawsuits, but i do know many Physicists disagree with him, Which then taints others from even considering his ideas and thus Unwilling to even look at his experiments and test results.

Since the forbes article, many validators have stepped up and validated many of the test results.
Shutting the guy down because he is challenging quantum physics seems unscientific to me.

The world was flat at one time.

 

[bigealta]

Yeah, Hydrinos def don't exist. There is only H2, H cations (protons), and H combined with something else.

Maybe they do, maybe they don't.

To me i don't really even care.
What i care about is results. Are these power densities created real or fake? And can they be scaled? That's really all that matters.

 

[woodgeek]

Hey, don't mess with my gal Elizabeth Holmes. Her tech IS compatible with physics and quantum physics. Just ran into some hard biology.

One of my students worked at Theranos awhile, and reported to her a couple times. Memories.

The problem is the skin-prick, not the small sample size. Apparently, with the skin prick, the filtration of the blood varies...sometimes you hit a larger vessel, and get more whole blood, and sometimes you don't and you get a different mix of plasma and cells. This effect was enough to throw all their assays too far out of whack.

I always assumed that they could find a way to calibrate that out (like in a lot of medical instruments, read how pulse-oximeters work...they're crazy). But I guess they didn't do the necessary R&D for that. Fraud was easier and cheaper. Just like those VW diesels.

 

[stoveliker]

The concept of the lab on a chip is certainly possible and could even be made practical at some point like they envisioned, I think. Problems often need a creative mind to find a working solution. And creativity does not let itself plan for deadlines.