BeGreen said:Companies that are not dropping prices to meet the competition are getting hammered.
http://tinyurl.com/3c3blvz
mbcijim said:It's just amazing how many people built a business that is based on government's whim of the moment. Total idiocy.
Locally, about $10,000,000 of solar was installed because they were given large grants from the state and the 30% Federal ITC grant. However, even after that, you still need the SREC sale to justify a commercial sized investment into it with normal returns. In our case (Pennsylvania) SREC sales were around $300-$350 last year on the spot market. So you had all these experienced businessmen investing in what is essentially a spot market. Do oil drillers drill wells based on $140/barrel oil prices? I don't think so.
So, what happened locally? SREC prices crashed, last I checked they were down to $90, which means a horrible return on investment.
So what do said businessmen (socialists) do? They organize a meeting with their local legislature and try and get them to change the laws.
These guys who are all upside down don't get that if SREC prices returned to $300, the return on investment for systems built today (not when they built) the returns would be 50-75% annually because of how much prices have crashed on installs.
Semipro said:mbcijim said:It's just amazing how many people built a business that is based on government's whim of the moment. Total idiocy.
Locally, about $10,000,000 of solar was installed because they were given large grants from the state and the 30% Federal ITC grant. However, even after that, you still need the SREC sale to justify a commercial sized investment into it with normal returns. In our case (Pennsylvania) SREC sales were around $300-$350 last year on the spot market. So you had all these experienced businessmen investing in what is essentially a spot market. Do oil drillers drill wells based on $140/barrel oil prices? I don't think so.
So, what happened locally? SREC prices crashed, last I checked they were down to $90, which means a horrible return on investment.
So what do said businessmen (socialists) do? They organize a meeting with their local legislature and try and get them to change the laws.
These guys who are all upside down don't get that if SREC prices returned to $300, the return on investment for systems built today (not when they built) the returns would be 50-75% annually because of how much prices have crashed on installs.
As much as I like the idea of alternative energy I question the wisdom of all the incentives for the reasons you cite and others.
It seems like doing away with subsidies across the board for all energy sources (including fossil fuels) and then paying a "true" cost for energy based on cradle-to-grave life-cycle costs, including environmental and health impacts, in a free market is the way to go. Of course who determines true costs and how its done is a big issue.
mbcijim said:Semipro said:mbcijim said:It's just amazing how many people built a business that is based on government's whim of the moment. Total idiocy.
Locally, about $10,000,000 of solar was installed because they were given large grants from the state and the 30% Federal ITC grant. However, even after that, you still need the SREC sale to justify a commercial sized investment into it with normal returns. In our case (Pennsylvania) SREC sales were around $300-$350 last year on the spot market. So you had all these experienced businessmen investing in what is essentially a spot market. Do oil drillers drill wells based on $140/barrel oil prices? I don't think so.
So, what happened locally? SREC prices crashed, last I checked they were down to $90, which means a horrible return on investment.
So what do said businessmen (socialists) do? They organize a meeting with their local legislature and try and get them to change the laws.
These guys who are all upside down don't get that if SREC prices returned to $300, the return on investment for systems built today (not when they built) the returns would be 50-75% annually because of how much prices have crashed on installs.
As much as I like the idea of alternative energy I question the wisdom of all the incentives for the reasons you cite and others.
It seems like doing away with subsidies across the board for all energy sources (including fossil fuels) and then paying a "true" cost for energy based on cradle-to-grave life-cycle costs, including environmental and health impacts, in a free market is the way to go. Of course who determines true costs and how its done is a big issue.
Ah, a true libertarian! What a novel idea. Imagine if the costs of war were tied to gasoline! But then Exxon would have their own army... and this topic would belong in the ashcan! I'm 100% with you semipro!
BeGreen said:Have to agree with you both. There are so many hidden costs of mining and manufacturing that are picked up by we the taxpayers. Interesting to note that Germany has a cradle to grave policy in place. They recycle about 70% of their waste (as compared to 33% in the US). They have set up the system to avoid non-recyclable waste in the first place. German manufacturers must consider waste avoidance, waste recovery and environmentally compatible disposal for all their products.
btuser said:China is building an industrial powerhouse that in the end will fail.
We're going to leap-frog over this.
Before we can leap we have to run, right now were crawlin. Theres always going to be a lot of HS dropouts here. 1000 to one for every kid from MIT . We had better find some manual labor that they can do unless we plan to have that kid from MIT support them all. pessimistic?, maybe but i see it gettin worse before it gets better. Hope im wrong.btuser said:We're going to leap-frog over this.
Webmaster said:It's not government that made these people go broke - if anything it is the lack of (policy, long term plans, thinking, etc.)......
I was deeply involved in the first solar boom in 1979-80 and we installed a bunch of systems that are still working today! My own house had a system on it for 25 year...when I sold it in 2005 it was still cranking....
What destroyed that boom - and what is now probably destroying this - in inconsistency. Reagan rolled back the tax credits to ZERO - INSTANTLY, and pulled out the rug from the entire industry. A similar thing has happened recently, as the GOP has made it clear in both states (NJ, etc. etc.) and Federally that they are not interested in helping the alternative energy or conservation industry. BTW, this includes wood and pellet stoves, insulation and other such things...
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