This is my first post and it will surely display my ignorance of catalytic stoves

[LE615]

So for a little background, I've lived with a wood stove in the house all of my life and wouldn't have it any other way. Only catch is that it's never had a cat.
A few years ago my uncle gave my parents their Jotul Firelight stove which has been sitting since then until this year. I installed it a couple of weeks ago and noticed the large bulge on the back (catalytic) and wondered what the deal with that was but figured I'd just get the stove installed and figured that out later. It has been very problematic right from the first fire and I'm sure at least some of it is my fault but here it goes. If the top load door or the front door gets opened, even just a couple of inches, smoke will start rolling into the house. Their house is directly on top of a very large hill (1,000' elevation difference from bottom of driveway to the house) and there is almost always a nice breeze or more up here. I ran the 6" pipe up 8' from the stove and then through the wall and then back up. I assumed I wasn't getting enough draw and that adding more pipe up top would be the answer but I am now 5-6' above the peak of the roof and still having the same issue. I have tried everything I can think of and am coming up empty handed. I started thinking that maybe the cat was clogged but it didn't make sense that it would matter when the bypass was open?
Also since I didn't know that it had a catalytic setup on it when I was doing the installation I put a damper plat above the stove int the black pipe like I have others before.
The only other issue they've had was kind of a bad one, my mom woke up the a house full of smoke and came out to find smoke and black drool coming from every seam on this stove. That was the ONLY time that the cat bypass has been closed and since have been using the damper plate that I put in.
Okay, I'm sure I'll catch heck for at least some of this but any pointers would be a tremendous help.

 

[begreen]

Welcome, Black pipe can not be used in a chimney. It must be stainless steel. From the description it sounds like the stove will need a full 6" liner to draft and perform well.

Misread the orig. post. This does not apply to the installation.
1000ft gain in elevation is one steep or long driveway.

 

[Woody Stover]

Get the manual online, read it, and get liner all the way to the top, as begreen suggested. You might check the cat as well, it may have been due for replacement when your uncle gave them the stove. Black drool sounds like wet wood, dead cat, or bad draft, and no cat light-off. Maybe Joful will check in soon with some input on how to proceed; He runs two of the 12s...

 

[Wood Duck]

Reading your original post it seems you have 6 inch pipe running from the stove to a point 5 or 6 ft above the roof with no gaps. There are some turns in the pipe, but it is pipe all the way, right? What is the total height from stove top to top of the flue pipe?

 

[begreen]

Wood duck is correct, I mis-read the OP post. Thanks for pointing that out. This is not a chimney install. A stainless liner is not needed.

You might want to start a conversation with Joful on the stove. He has 3. The first thing to check is that the bypass is opening correctly when the stove top is opened. Also, if there is a screen on the flue cap, check it to be sure it is not starting to plug up.

 

[bholler]

I just have to check you say you ran pipe up then out then up again you did change over to class a chimney when you went out the wall correct? I don't know the stove at all but if you had black stuff coming out of the seams in the stove that sounds like the stove might need rebuilt but i could be wrong.

 

[Wood Duck]

My basic understanding of typical cat stoves is they have a bypass, so that air goes directly up the pipe instead of through the cat. I think with the bypass open the stove should work like an old fashioned stove, with air entering the box to feed the fire, then hot gases going up the flue - simple. If you can't get a fire going with the bypass open then you have a draft problem. If you can get a fire going with the bypass open, but not with the bypass closed/cat engaged, then you have a clogged cat.

It sounds like you can start a fire with the bypass open, but with the cat closed it dies or smokes. It sounds like you have a bad cat.

 

[LE615]

Okay, first off thanks for all the replies! I will first make a general post since there are things everyone mentioned.

I ran black pipe up then turned 90 degrees towards the wall. I then used a Duravent kit to go through the wall which turned it 90 degrees back up and I ran the rest of the way with stainless triple wall pipe.

Total height is probably between 24'-26' above the stove top.

The bypass opens and closes as it should.

Wood Duck, I can definitely build a fire with the bypass open but have not tried building one with it closed... Figured that would certainly fill the house with smoke but?? My problem is that even with the bypass open, the smoke still want to come out the doors if they are open more than an inch. Naturally this gets a little better as the fire heats up but even a super hot fire with not prevent the smoke from pouring out the door while loading. I will mention that when there's a fire burning, I can crack the ash tray door and it really sucks the air through there really well. It's not quite the draw I have at my house if I crack the door but it's not a huge difference. I'm not saying that there is nothing wrong with the cat but I do know that it puts smoke in the house even when bypassed.

The black drool could be partially the fault of wet wood. The trees were all fell one or more years ago when the logging crew came through but have been splitting it a couple ricks at the time as I need it. I've had no problem burning it at My house but I have a good sized Schrader made in the early 80's so there's no cat. I've been wondering if the goo wasn't partially due to having such a long total pipe length with two 90's in it. Seems to me that there could be enough temp difference between the hot air and the "cool to the touch" pipe up top causing condensation to run back down through any ash, creosote, etc...?

I've not looked at the process for posting pictures to this forum but I could certainly post a few pictures of everything tomorrow when I go by my folks house if that would help at all?

BeGreen, the driveway is both, the first 100 yards is certainly not for the faint of heart and the total length is a bit over 9/10ths of a mile long. The steep stretch is paved but the rest is gravel and the two companies we get rock from only have a few drivers that will even go out there. Last guy busted the driveline out when he was 3/4 of the way up the pavement and that almost got interesting. It was his fault for trying to come up the hill like a cowboy though. Another driver quit his job after being sent out there about 2yrs ago. The view from up there is top notch though!

 

[jeff_t]

Change the 90 in the stove pipe to two 45s.

Does the fire change when you open and close the primary air?

The wood is really wet, and probably a big part of the problem. Split a bunch now, hopefully it will be dry enough for next year.

No idea on the innards of the stove. Paging @Joful

 

[begreen]

Check the chimney and in particular the chimney cap for plugging. Wood doesn't start seasoning well until it has been split. If this is oak, add two years before it's ready to burn.

 

[Ashful]

Hi guys,

@LE615, you are not going to be able to run that stove as a proper catalytic stove without wood at or below 23% MC. Believe me, I have tried! (... and tried, and tried...) I do suspect the black ooze was steam-borne creosote cooling in that tall stack, and would happen with any EPA stove on that stack, not just a catalytic. Separate issue, but an issue, nonetheless.

Your chimney height sounds fine, if anything a little toward the upper end of what you want. I run one of my Firelight 12's on about 15 feet of chimney, and the other on about 25 feet (maybe it's 29 feet... can't remember now). The taller chimney drafts pretty good, perhaps just marginally too good, so I think installing that pipe damper was a good idea. Keep it open until you see the cat over-firing, and then use it to throttle down the draft, as necessary. More on that, later.

I would suggest two things:

1. Pull the rear burn plate out of the stove, remove cat chamber cover (careful, it's a fragile refractory material), and slide the cat out. Compare it to photos online (Google is your friend), to determine if it's clean, clogged, wasted, cracked, etc. Post pictures here, if you please. You'll also get a pretty quick idea of how this stove really works, when you get a look back there.

2. Reassemble stove, and get yourself a bundle or two of kiln-dried wood. You can find them at the grocery store, gas station, convenience store, etc. I'll post instructions on how to burn it tomorrow, so we can give this stove a true test. Right now, I'm watching the end of Sons of Liberty!

 

[Ashful]

Forgot to mention... rear burn plate is held in with only one bolt at top. Your stove door tool fits that bolt.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Sounds a lot like wet wood to me... definitely take the above advice of getting some truly dry wood (go buy a moisture meter if you have to so you can make sure it is dry).

 

[LE615]

Check the chimney and in particular the chimney cap for plugging. Wood doesn't start seasoning well until it has been split. If this is oak, add two years before it's ready to burn.

The mesh around the chimney cap isn't plugged up but does have a little buildup. I might would have suspected something like that if not for the fact that smoke would come into the house right from the first fire built. Everything from one end of the system to the other was brand new with the exception of the stove itself. Most of the wood I have isn't oak but seems to be mostly hickory, maple and walnut right now. We may start dragging trees from one of the other hillsides and get into more oak though. Sounds like I need to try to go ahead and start building up next years stash if they're going to keep this stove.

 

[LE615]

Hi guys,

@LE615, you are not going to be able to run that stove as a proper catalytic stove without wood at or below 23% MC. Believe me, I have tried! (... and tried, and tried...) I do suspect the black ooze was steam-borne creosote cooling in that tall stack, and would happen with any EPA stove on that stack, not just a catalytic. Separate issue, but an issue, nonetheless.

Your chimney height sounds fine, if anything a little toward the upper end of what you want. I run one of my Firelight 12's on about 15 feet of chimney, and the other on about 25 feet (maybe it's 29 feet... can't remember now). The taller chimney drafts pretty good, perhaps just marginally too good, so I think installing that pipe damper was a good idea. Keep it open until you see the cat over-firing, and then use it to throttle down the draft, as necessary. More on that, later.

I would suggest two things:

1. Pull the rear burn plate out of the stove, remove cat chamber cover (careful, it's a fragile refractory material), and slide the cat out. Compare it to photos online (Google is your friend), to determine if it's clean, clogged, wasted, cracked, etc. Post pictures here, if you please. You'll also get a pretty quick idea of how this stove really works, when you get a look back there.

2. Reassemble stove, and get yourself a bundle or two of kiln-dried wood. You can find them at the grocery store, gas station, convenience store, etc. I'll post instructions on how to burn it tomorrow, so we can give this stove a true test. Right now, I'm watching the end of Sons of Liberty!

I am waiting on the stove to cool from yesterday's fire but as soon as it finishes I'll pull the plate, cover and cat and report back. Thanks

 

[LE615]

Change the 90 in the stove pipe to two 45s.

Does the fire change when you open and close the primary air?

The wood is really wet, and probably a big part of the problem. Split a bunch now, hopefully it will be dry enough for next year.

No idea on the innards of the stove. Paging @Joful

I honestly can't really tell a difference with the vent opened vs. closed. Almost as if the vent is clogged? But I'm not sure but is on my list of things to check today.

I certainly could switch the 90 that's inside the house over to two 45's which I would think might make a pretty good difference. I just decided that iid quit guessing at it and come ask here where it looked like folks were pretty knowledgeable.

 

[jeff_t]

Right now, I'm watching the end of Sons of Liberty!

Is your house in it?

 

[kennyp2339]

Ok, so I scanned through this post and a couple things jump out at me, some have already been said but I just give you my general impression / advice (if you want to call it that)
1. the black tar coming out of the seems of the pipe. I'm assuming this is occurring on the inside of your house, It is important to have your black pipe installed with the male end (crimped end) facing down (towards the stove) this will allow and dripping creosote to run unimpeded back to the stove to get burned up.
2. By-pass questions - Never try to make a cold start fire with the by-pass closed, you will only get smoke back into your house. The by-pass should be left in the open position (even when reloading) until the fire gets well established, this allows the catalyst to heat up to the proper reaction temp so when smoke / unburnt particles run through it, it can be reburned, sending smoke through a cool catalyst can cause the cat to become plugged up.
3. The catalyst - needs to be warmed before firing off, you want to have a well established fire before putting this in "cat mode" ideally you want a stove top temp in the ball park of 500deg, it my seem like a high temp but you are guaranteed proper light off (especially when you are learning how this stove works) Ideally it can take up to 25 min from a cold start before you can close the bypass and have this stove in cat mode.
4. Dry wood - you want your wood to be as dry as possible, many people / stove companies define dry firewood as having a moisture reading of less than 20%, think of it this way, you have a wood split that weighs 10lbs, at 20% moisture 2 of those 10lbs are just water, when water turns to steam it expands many times its own size and can absorb a ton of heat, thus it would take longer to get a higher fire box temp / longer to light of the cat. If you are unsure about your wood supply try buying some compressed wood blocks (not the fire place logs) or get some dry pallets and break them up, you could even mix some of your not so sure wood in the stove once you get an established fire.
5. Building a fire - news paper, fire starter is your best friend, small pieces of kindling then a couple larger split (2"-3") nothing crazy, light that up, let it establish, then a couple more large pieces, let it get established some more, then add you regular pieces. Depending on your draft, especially on a cold start you may need to have your front door of the stove opened slightly to get the pieces ripping, also primary air control should be wide open.

I hope this advice helps you out.

 

[LE615]

Ok, so I scanned through this post and a couple things jump out at me, some have already been said but I just give you my general impression / advice (if you want to call it that)
1. the black tar coming out of the seems of the pipe. I'm assuming this is occurring on the inside of your house, It is important to have your black pipe installed with the male end (crimped end) facing down (towards the stove) this will allow and dripping creosote to run unimpeded back to the stove to get burned up.
2. By-pass questions - Never try to make a cold start fire with the by-pass closed, you will only get smoke back into your house. The by-pass should be left in the open position (even when reloading) until the fire gets well established, this allows the catalyst to heat up to the proper reaction temp so when smoke / unburnt particles run through it, it can be reburned, sending smoke through a cool catalyst can cause the cat to become plugged up.
3. The catalyst - needs to be warmed before firing off, you want to have a well established fire before putting this in "cat mode" ideally you want a stove top temp in the ball park of 500deg, it my seem like a high temp but you are guaranteed proper light off (especially when you are learning how this stove works) Ideally it can take up to 25 min from a cold start before you can close the bypass and have this stove in cat mode.
4. Dry wood - you want your wood to be as dry as possible, many people / stove companies define dry firewood as having a moisture reading of less than 20%, think of it this way, you have a wood split that weighs 10lbs, at 20% moisture 2 of those 10lbs are just water, when water turns to steam it expands many times its own size and can absorb a ton of heat, thus it would take longer to get a higher fire box temp / longer to light of the cat. If you are unsure about your wood supply try buying some compressed wood blocks (not the fire place logs) or get some dry pallets and break them up, you could even mix some of your not so sure wood in the stove once you get an established fire.
5. Building a fire - news paper, fire starter is your best friend, small pieces of kindling then a couple larger split (2"-3") nothing crazy, light that up, let it establish, then a couple more large pieces, let it get established some more, then add you regular pieces. Depending on your draft, especially on a cold start you may need to have your front door of the stove opened slightly to get the pieces ripping, also primary air control should be wide open.

I hope this advice helps you out.

My black pipe is male end down with the exception of where I connected to the wall thimble where I believe one joint is backwards but I'd have to look to verify.

We've not tried building a fire with the cat bypass closed but I'm pretty sure the time that my mom filled the house with smoke is when she loaded the stove up, closed the bypass and went to bed. At that point the bypass was assumed to be nothing more than a built in damper which I'll take the blame for since I was ignorant of a stove cat even being a thing at the time. They have been running a fire with the bypass open since then using it like an older non regulated stove with the damper I installed in the black pipe. Even with the bypass open they can't open the door more than about and inch without smoke coming in. The smoke seems to curl up at the top of the door and then comes on out into the house.

I don't have a meter to test MC but we have been bringing in 3-4 days worth of wood and stacking it by the stove. I'm not suggesting that this takes the place of properly seasoned wood but rather just pointing out that I can tell a very noticeable weight difference in the wood after a couple of days like this so is imagine that means it's quite wet?

As for fire starter, we have property down in Florida so we have access to what we call lightered wood. Touch a flame to it and it's off and burning that quick. It burns really hot really quickly so in turn it gets a fire going hot very quickly even with very wet wood. Usually 2-3 pieces, less than an inch in dia. about 8" long is plenty to get the job done.

The cat is not clogged and seems to be in good shape when compared to pictures online.

Here's my real issue right now, while I am wanting to get the cat operational for them I can't help but think that the smoke in the house issue is unrelated. With the bypass open, should it not run like any other unregulated stove? At this point, even if the wood was dry and the cat was working, I think we'd still have a smoke problem when the doors or lid are open even with the bypass open. Does this sound right or am I missing something?

I just snapped some pics of the cat and a few other things so I'll post those next.

 

[LE615]

Pic 1

Pic 2

Pic 3

Pic 4

 

[LE615]

Pic 5

Okay I just thought of this, when we brought the stove up here this "shield"? Was layin in the floor of the stove. I put it back in place before ever starting a fire but figured I'd mention it in case this could cause problems.

 

[begreen]

That doesn't look like 24-26' above the stove top. Outside it looks more like about 9-10 ft of chimney, indoors maybe 4ft height over stove top? The two 90 deg turns are going to make the chimney function more like it has 10ft of chimney, especially in milder weather. As a test, on a calm day, I would get a 4' length 6" vent pipe, remove the cap and stick it in the chimney, crimp down. See if that improves draft and reduces smoke spillage. If so, make it permanent with chimney pipe and also soften the indoor 90 by replacing it with a 45 elbow at the thimble, then an offset piece connecting to the second 45 elbow on the stove pipe coming off the stove.

 

[LE615]

That doesn't look like 24-26' above the stove top. Outside it looks more like about 9-10 ft of chimney, indoors maybe 4ft height over stove top? The two 90 deg turns are going to make the chimney function more like it has 10ft of chimney, especially in milder weather. As a test, on a calm day, I would get a 4' length 6" vent pipe, remove the cap and stick it in the chimney, crimp down. See if that improves draft and reduces smoke spillage. If so, make it permanent with chimney pipe and also soften the indoor 90 by replacing it with a 45 elbow at the thimble, then an offset piece connecting to the second 45 elbow on the stove pipe coming off the stove.

I was guessing at the height of the house when I came up with that number. I was at home at that point but I'm here now and just looked at how many joints of each pipe and it's still about 22' above stove top. If that still sounds to short to you I think I'll try swapping in two 45's in place of the 90 and see what that nets me before adding pipe because at this point I have no way of reaching the top of the pipe to add more to it. I don't have enough scaffolding to reach it even with a ladder and can't reach from the roof without a ladder and that just won't work. My forklift is down right now or I could have someone lift me with that.

As far as how much there is outdoor vs. indoor, there is 15' +/- an inch or so outside and 7' +/- an inch or so above stovetop inside.

If all of this doesn't get things straightened out then I'll be looking at replacing the sheet metal on the wall and then running straight up through the roof which is what I had suggested to the powers that be from the start.

 

[Ashful]

Hi LE615,

You are correct... the smoke out the door with bypass open is unrelated to operation of the stove / catalyst, etc. As I'm sure you already saw, opening the bypass door gives you a straight shot from firebox up thru chimney. In fact, I can NOT burn my stoves with the bypass open, as the straight path provides draft too strong to control the fire. You definitely have a draft issue, so it's worth exploring this, before we get into the finer points of catalytic stove operation.

I'll check your pic's when I get home. They're not loading on my mobile device.

@jeff_t, nope! The series ends at Washington's first battle with Gage. My grandmother's and uncle's houses became temporary headquarters for Washington the following year, but my current house played no role, of which I know.

 

[Smoke Signals]

LE615, Could you pre-assemble a few sections of pipe and then place them on top of the chimney as high up as you can reach?