Thoughts on this quote to install 4 wood inserts + 2 gas inserts?

[north-east-colonial]

Hi!

I live in a late 19th century stone home in the mid-atlantic / lower north east of the US. January, the coldest month, has an average low of ~25 and an average high of ~40. December and February are similar'ish. In a year, we will see ~2 days less than 10 degrees, ~15 days less than 20 degrees, and ~80 days less than freezing.

My house has 8 fireplaces. 1 is already converted to gas logs, 1 is in the foyer and I want to keep it as open hearth for the ambiance, but the other 6 are in various states of disrepair and I'd love to make them functional.

I just got a quote, detailed below, and would love to sanity check the numbers.

	Insert & Cost of Insert	Cost of Install & Details	Additional Costs & Details	Total
Family Room	$5,800 Blaze King Ashford 25 w/ Large Shroud	$5,700 Includes: remove damper frame and enlarge throat for flue liner, install insulated UL stainless steel lining system, install rain cap and animal guard, install insert (+faceplates, brick panels, trim, etc.)	+$400 level 2 inspection +$1,000 to modify the firebox to increase the depth to accommodate insert +$500 Oversize backing plate for irregular height of firebox	$13,400
Dining Room (Gas)	$4,700 Oakville X4 w/ Large Faceplates	$3,800 Includes: setup and area protection, install liner system, install rain cap and animal guard, install insert (+faceplates, brick panels, trim, etc), test fire unit Does NOT include: gas and electric hookups, need to do separately	+$1,600 to modify the firebox to increase the rear width to accommodate insert +$500 Oversize backing plate for irregular height of firebox	$10,600
Living Room (Gas)	$4,700 Oakville X4 w/ Large Faceplates	$3,800 Same details as dining room	+$1,600 to modify the firebox to increase the rear width to accommodate insert +$500 Oversize backing plate for irregular height of firebox	$10,600
Master Bedroom	$4,000 Regency Cascades i1500 w/ Oversize Backing Plate & Blower	$5,700 Same details as family room	+$750 to remove cast iron insert and parge firebox +$400 level 2 inspection +$500 Oversize backing plate for irregular height of firebox	$11,350
Bedroom #2	$4,000 Regency Cascades i1500 w/ Oversize Backing Plate & Blower	$5,700 Same details as family room	+$750 to remove cast iron insert and parge firebox +$400 level 2 inspection +$500 Oversize backing plate for irregular height of firebox	$11,350
Bedroom #3	$4,000 Regency Cascades i1500 w/ Oversize Backing Plate & Blower	$5,700 Same details as family room	+$400 level 2 inspection +$500 Oversize backing plate for irregular height of firebox	$10,600
Shared expenses			+$5,000 for bucket truck due to high reach to chimneys +$2,700 to pour crown on one chimney for 2 of the fireplaces (both bedroom #2 and dining room are currently capped, will need to break it, install 2 flues, install expansion joints, etc.)	$7,700

So, in total, this is ~$76k.

Do the per unit prices seem reasonable? I will likely not do it all at once, but I wanted to get a quote for everything.

I may choose to just do the wood ones for now, and finance it at 0% interest using their offer, so that I can get the tax credit... but ultimately I do want to sanity check the numbers.

Thank you!

 

[begreen]

A few things stand out. How serious are the fireplace modifications to make the inserts fit? The quotes seem high for what typically is about an hour's work.

Who is going to run all these stoves? Running two stoves can be a lot of work, not to mention 4. It's worse if the wood has to be toted upstairs. Who cleans up after the mess? See below, but I suspect only the BK Ashford 25 may work out.

Lastly, wood stoves (or inserts) are not permitted in bedrooms. Gas is ok. Has this proposal been run past the insurance agent?

 

[north-east-colonial]

Hey @begreen thanks for the quick response! Answers to your questions:

1) Why is it an eclectic mix, in your opinion? For the fireboxes that need to be modified (noted in the table), they need to break some bricks and rebuild it because they're not wide enough in the rear or too shallow. Good to know that the quote seems high, though...

2) Out of the 4 wood inserts, truth be told the one that will be used most often is the Family Room. The Master Bedroom will get used on the really cold nights. The other 2 bedrooms would rarely get used, but would be there as optionality for guests.

3) I had no idea. I just looked up the code for my state and it seems like this is correct... will go back to the chimney company now and ask them WTH?

 

[north-east-colonial]

Actually on #3, it looks like I'm looking at the code for gas appliances. Need to find the one for wood... can't find it yet.

 

[bholler]

Actually on #3, it looks like I'm looking at the code for gas appliances. Need to find the one for wood... can't find it yet.

Gas inserts are allowed in bedrooms solid fuel burning appliances are not

 

[north-east-colonial]

@bholler & @begreen
Just FYI, I just called my local government planning department and asked if we could install a wood burning insert in our sleeping areas / bedrooms. The person responsible for issuing building permits in my area said it was no problem at all, other than making sure clearances are followed (e.g. 16" hearth depth in front of the insert, distances between combustible trim, etc)

 

[bholler]

@bholler & @begreen
Just FYI, I just called my local government planning department and asked if we could install a wood burning insert in our sleeping areas / bedrooms. The person responsible for issuing building permits in my area said it was no problem at all, other than making sure clearances are followed (e.g. 16" hearth depth in front of the insert, distances between combustible trim, etc)

What state is this in? Unless they havnt adopted the same international codes as almost every state in the country who ever you talked to is absolutely wrong. And I don't know of any state in the northeast that hasn't adopted those codes

 

[north-east-colonial]

What state is this in? Unless they havnt adopted the same international codes as almost every state in the country who ever you talked to is absolutely wrong. And I don't know of any state in the northeast that hasn't adopted those codes

SE Pennsylvania... both the building permit government employee and chimney company are saying the same thing, if you have a pointer to a building code that says this I'd be greatly appreciative so I can share it with them

 

[bholler]

SE Pennsylvania... both the building permit government employee and chimney company are saying the same thing, if you have a pointer to a building code that says this I'd be greatly appreciative so I can share it with them

I work in pa and can absolutely guarantee it is against code here. It is prohibited in both NFPA 211 and mechanical code.

 

[north-east-colonial]

I work in pa and can absolutely guarantee it is against code here. It is prohibited in both NFPA 211 and mechanical code.

Chapter 13? Essentially enclosed space < 512 sq ft. Although NFPA is voluntary, and so I want to find the local ordinances that say they follow this code... which is where I'm struggling.

 

[bholler]

Chapter 13? Essentially enclosed space < 512 sq ft.

View attachment 304896

I will find the code tonight if I have the energy. I have 2 more hours atleast of cleanings to get done today

 

[north-east-colonial]

Wait, I misread. It is 512 cubic feet, not square feet. That's smaller than my rooms. That's an 8' x 8' room with 8' ceilings.

My bedrooms are ~350 sq ft, 350 sq ft, and 280 sq ft, with 9 foot ceilings. So 3,150 cubic feet, 3,150, and 2,520. 5-6 times larger than the NFPA requirements.

 

[BillBurns]

Just nutso on prices.

 

[north-east-colonial]

Just nutso on prices.

Got a few different quotes and the lowest was $53k all in... and they found a way to do gas in the bedrooms so it will be 5 gas inserts + 1 wood insert. All inserts will be Regency. Their price, which includes running the electric and gas lines, and is a guaranteed price regardless of what they find (in writing) was $53k. So a good $23k cheaper.

Do you think that is back to the universe of sane?

 

[mdocod]

Lets make sure the clipboards are right before going warrior all over them.

When we submitted plans for the house we are currently living in, the plans included small wood stoves in the 2 large bedrooms, as well as a large stove out in the Great Room. The builder had no issue with it, nor did our regional building department. In the end, we decided against the wood stove in our master in favor of a infrared sauna, and decided against it in the other large (2nd master) bedroom for reasons of dealing with messy wood and ash up and down stairs through the house. The Great Room stove and wood storage is on either side of an exterior door on the "back" of the house so this is efficient for wood/mess handling.

No regrets... Wood stoves in bedrooms are likely to be more of a novelty used a couple times a year than a utility. A cooler bedroom is preferred by most for comfortable sleep.

 

[north-east-colonial]

Thanks @mdocod ... glad to hear other locales were OK with wood in bedrooms, too, suggesting that it isn't so insane after all.

But also agreed that wood in bedrooms would be a lot of work, so glad we were able to figure out gas.

 

[bholler]

303.3 Prohibited locations. Fuel-fired appliances shall not be located in, or obtain combustion air from, any of the following rooms or spaces:

1. Sleeping rooms
2. Bathrooms.
3. Toilet rooms.
4. Storage closets.
5. Surgical rooms.
Exception: This section shall not apply to the following appliances:

1. Direct-vent appliances that obtain all combustion air directly from the outdoors.
2. Solid fuel-fired appliances, provided that the room is not a confined space and the building is not of unusually tight construction.

3. Appliances installed in a dedicated enclosure in which all combustion air is taken directly from the outdoors, in accordance with Section 703. Access to such enclosure shall be through a solid door, weather-stripped in accordance with the exterior door air leakage requirements of the International Energy Conservation Code and equipped with an approved self-closing device.

International Fuel Gas Code (IFGC)
SECTION 303
APPLIANCE LOCATION
303.3 Prohibited locations. Fuel-fired appliances shall not be located in, or obtain combustion air from, any of the following rooms or spaces:

1. Sleeping rooms.
2. Bathrooms.
3. Toilet rooms.
4. Storage closets.
5. Surgical rooms.
Exceptions:

1. Direct-vent appliances that obtain all combustion air directly from the outdoors.
2. Listed vented gas fired room heaters, listed vented decorative gas appliances and listed decorative gas-fired appliances for installation in vented solid fuel burning fireplaces, provided that the room is not a confined space and the building is not of unusually tight construction.

 

[Queequeg From Rokovoko]

303.3 Prohibited locations. Fuel-fired appliances shall not be located in, or obtain combustion air from, any of the following rooms or spaces:

1. Sleeping rooms
2. Bathrooms.
3. Toilet rooms.
4. Storage closets.
5. Surgical rooms.
Exception: This section shall not apply to the following appliances:

1. Direct-vent appliances that obtain all combustion air directly from the outdoors.
2. Solid fuel-fired appliances, provided that the room is not a confined space and the building is not of unusually tight construction.

3. Appliances installed in a dedicated enclosure in which all combustion air is taken directly from the outdoors, in accordance with Section 703. Access to such enclosure shall be through a solid door, weather-stripped in accordance with the exterior door air leakage requirements of the International Energy Conservation Code and equipped with an approved self-closing device.

International Fuel Gas Code (IFGC)
SECTION 303
APPLIANCE LOCATION
303.3 Prohibited locations. Fuel-fired appliances shall not be located in, or obtain combustion air from, any of the following rooms or spaces:

1. Sleeping rooms.
2. Bathrooms.
3. Toilet rooms.
4. Storage closets.
5. Surgical rooms.
Exceptions:

1. Direct-vent appliances that obtain all combustion air directly from the outdoors.
2. Listed vented gas fired room heaters, listed vented decorative gas appliances and listed decorative gas-fired appliances for installation in vented solid fuel burning fireplaces, provided that the room is not a confined space and the building is not of unusually tight construction.

So if external air sorce is used it's OK (wood in the bedroom)? Not that I would do it due to logistics, mess mostly. We're going to be building a new house and we may make provisions for such, walk out patio off the master, etc.

 

[bholler]

So if external air sorce is used it's OK (wood in the bedroom)? Not that I would do it due to logistics, mess mostly. We're going to be building a new house and we may make provisions for such, walk out patio off the master, etc.

That is for gas not solid fuel

 

[Queequeg From Rokovoko]

That is for gas not solid fuel

303.3 Prohibited locations. Fuel-fired appliances shall not be located in, or obtain combustion air from, any of the following rooms or spaces:

Exceptions:

......

2. Listed vented gas fired room heaters, listed vented decorative gas appliances and listed decorative gas-fired appliances for installation in vented solid fuel burning fireplaces, provided that the room is not a confined space and the building is not of unusually tight construction.

Or is that refering to a gas insert in a regular wood buring fireplace?

 

[bholler]

303.3 Prohibited locations. Fuel-fired appliances shall not be located in, or obtain combustion air from, any of the following rooms or spaces:

Exceptions:

......

2. Listed vented gas fired room heaters, listed vented decorative gas appliances and listed decorative gas-fired appliances for installation in vented solid fuel burning fireplaces, provided that the room is not a confined space and the building is not of unusually tight construction.

Or is that refering to a gas insert in a regular wood buring fireplace?

Again they are talking about gas. Specifically gas appliances meant to be installed in vented solid fuel burning fireplaces

 

[Ctwoodtick]

If it hasn’t already been mentioned- contact your insurance company with anything remotely in question. Better to be told “no” now than later.

 

[mdocod]

303.3 Prohibited locations. Fuel-fired appliances shall not be located in, or obtain combustion air from, any of the following rooms or spaces:

1. Sleeping rooms
2. Bathrooms.
3. Toilet rooms.
4. Storage closets.
5. Surgical rooms.
Exception: This section shall not apply to the following appliances:

1. Direct-vent appliances that obtain all combustion air directly from the outdoors.
2. Solid fuel-fired appliances, provided that the room is not a confined space and the building is not of unusually tight construction.

3. Appliances installed in a dedicated enclosure in which all combustion air is taken directly from the outdoors, in accordance with Section 703. Access to such enclosure shall be through a solid door, weather-stripped in accordance with the exterior door air leakage requirements of the International Energy Conservation Code and equipped with an approved self-closing device.

International Fuel Gas Code (IFGC)
SECTION 303
APPLIANCE LOCATION
303.3 Prohibited locations. Fuel-fired appliances shall not be located in, or obtain combustion air from, any of the following rooms or spaces:

1. Sleeping rooms.
2. Bathrooms.
3. Toilet rooms.
4. Storage closets.
5. Surgical rooms.
Exceptions:

1. Direct-vent appliances that obtain all combustion air directly from the outdoors.
2. Listed vented gas fired room heaters, listed vented decorative gas appliances and listed decorative gas-fired appliances for installation in vented solid fuel burning fireplaces, provided that the room is not a confined space and the building is not of unusually tight construction.

I read this, as several others here do, as there being an exception for wood stoves, not the other way around. If you think what you posted makes your case, I have news... You proved yourself wrong.

Our regional building department approved wood stoves installed in bedrooms without even batting an eye, and I have seen lots of wood stoves in bedrooms, and often in the transition area between the master bedroom and master bath, so that you could take a hot bath in the ambiance of the wood stove flickering.

 

[bholler]

I read this, as several others here do, as there being an exception for wood stoves, not the other way around. If you think what you posted makes your case, I have news... You proved yourself wrong.

Our regional building department approved wood stoves installed in bedrooms without even batting an eye, and I have seen lots of wood stoves in bedrooms, and often in the transition area between the master bedroom and master bath, so that you could take a hot bath in the ambiance of the wood stove flickering.

It is not meant to prove or disprove what I said it's mean to provide accurate information. And yes it gives an exception for woodstoves if it's an old leaky house or if the sleeping area isn't a confined space. That's the code plain and simple

 

[Ctwoodtick]

One would have to wonder as well the difficulty one would have trying to prove to an insurance company after the fact that their house met these exemptions.