To Insulate or Not (ss flue)

[Marsh]

Will be placing my order for a Hampton I1301 insert early next week!! Dealer gave me a price of $647 for 6" x 25" SS liner with the other components. No mention of insulation. Flue is 11'X 11' X 20'. My gut tells me to buy my own liner and insulation kit. What are the effects of insulated / non-insulated SS liner? What is a relalisting price to pay for a 1/2" insulation kit? Want this Hampton to work flawless and don't want to skimp.

 

[theheatelement]

If your chimney is in perfect shape you will not need to insulate, otherwise you really should.

Will be placing my order for a Hampton I1301 insert early next week!! Dealer gave me a price of $647 for 6" x 25" SS liner with the other components. No mention of insulation. Flue is 11'X 11' X 20'. My gut tells me to buy my own liner and insulation kit. What are the effects of insulated / non-insulated SS liner? What is a relalisting price to pay for a 1/2" insulation kit? Want this Hampton to work flawless and don't want to skimp.

 

[Marsh]

Thanks. Going with the insulation. Does MagnaFlex sell the insulation kits with the liner?

 

[Rudyjr]

Check with Magnaflex about their pre-insulated liner called Insulflex. Looks like a great cost effective product to me. No foil face and chicken wire on the outside of the insulation. Instead they use an outer layer of aluminum flex pipe, looks alot more durable when you pull in the liner to me. If I had known about this product I would have used it on my installation.

 

[oconnor]

Thanks. Going with the insulation. Does MagnaFlex sell the insulation kits with the liner?

Whatever product you get, make sure you get the instructions first, before you buy it. One mans liner that is approved with insulation is not the same as the other fellows, who hasn't had the testing done, even if they are exactly the same material and design. In the end, the only way to install an insulated liner is by exactly following the manufacturers instructions. Magnaflex's liner looks like a great idea, but I have yet to see the instructions and UL listing on it. Last I heard he was working on getting it posted to his site.

 

[theheatelement]

Had testing posted, Franks mentioned that they can no longer hang me.. LOL.. But in regards to what you said about one man's liner. All liners that have passed UL testing have been tested already in a perfect chimney- and pass. Insulation is approved on it's own for the manufacture of the insulating blanket. I pulled our UL and it doesn't really say anything about it besides it staying in place.

Thanks. Going with the insulation. Does MagnaFlex sell the insulation kits with the liner?

Whatever product you get, make sure you get the instructions first, before you buy it. One mans liner that is approved with insulation is not the same as the other fellows, who hasn't had the testing done, even if they are exactly the same material and design. In the end, the only way to install an insulated liner is by exactly following the manufacturers instructions. Magnaflex's liner looks like a great idea, but I have yet to see the instructions and UL listing on it. Last I heard he was working on getting it posted to his site.

 

[ansehnlich1]

I had some local guys run some flex king pro down my chimney, talk about some heavy duty liner, sheesh.

....and, whatever you choose for liner, definitley INSULATE IT

 

[michaelryba]

After reading dozens of pro and against postings on this site, I decided to buy an insulation kit after placing the stove (insert) order. Used Rockford Supply (mail-order). Kit price was $269 delivered. On a $4,000 complete project, it's not huge. It added some work to the DIY install, but I have peace of mind, slightly better stove performance, and less creosote accumulation. A lot depends on your set-up--chimney, burning rate, stove, ect.

 

[oconnor]

Had testing posted, Franks mentioned that they can no longer hang me.. LOL.. But in regards to what you said about one man's liner. All liners that have passed UL testing have been tested already in a perfect chimney- and pass. Insulation is approved on it's own for the manufacture of the insulating blanket. I pulled our UL and it doesn't really say anything about it besides it staying in place.

Thanks. Going with the insulation. Does MagnaFlex sell the insulation kits with the liner?

Whatever product you get, make sure you get the instructions first, before you buy it. One mans liner that is approved with insulation is not the same as the other fellows, who hasn't had the testing done, even if they are exactly the same material and design. In the end, the only way to install an insulated liner is by exactly following the manufacturers instructions. Magnaflex's liner looks like a great idea, but I have yet to see the instructions and UL listing on it. Last I heard he was working on getting it posted to his site.

The trouble is, your liner wasn't tested with a blanket insulation, therefore, it isn't approved to a zero/zero specification when installed with a ceramic fibre blanket - only when installed with thermix. To bad you can't post your actual instruction sheets or ULC certificates (labels that go on the product), 'cause in the end, they are what the insurer is going to want to see. Without clear instructions for your product detailing how ceramic fibre blanket insulation can be used, I could not recommend it's use based on what I have seen here or elsewhere as far as documentation goes.

As for your comment on saying that any approved liner can be brought to a zero/zero install spec with insulation, I clearly say that is not correct. I've seen liners that state they may not be installed with insulation, and others that say their ULC1777/CAN 635 certification is only valid when a specific product is used.

Here is a quote from a competing product's manual:

Insulated Liners
In general insulated liner systems will provide better performance than
non-insulated systems. An insulated system will accumulate less creosote
and provide better draft than a non-insulated system. Insulation is
a code requirement for some installations, see the table on page 5 to
determine if insulation is required for your application. The EXCELiner
system is certified to UL 1777 for zero clearance when it is insulated with
one layer of ¼” foil faced insulation.
The types of insulation accepted are :
- Premier Refractories Canada, Type LT; 8 lb/cu.ft
- All Fabrication Inc., Hi-Temp Blanket; 8 lb/cu.ft
- Thermal Ceramics, Kaowood blanket; 8 lb/cu.ft
- Thermal Ceramics, Cerablanket; 8 lb/cu.ft
- Carborundum, Durablanket; 8 lb/cu.ft

In this instance, using Thermix to insulate this liner is not in accordance with the instructions provided, and would not meet code, as code compliance requires following the manufacturers instructions.

It would seem that your instructions, if based only on the test doc you post, would require only the use of Thermix. Ceramic Fibre blanket is not mentioned in this document. How then would one show their insurer that your product meets the specs when installed with a thermal blanket type insulation?

 

[theheatelement]

Instead of the negativity do you think a more positive approach would be to ask for more results... I will pull more testing data in the morning... It was posted here with blanket information but the thread was closed. Just an FYI, if I can provide this info can anyone else???

Had testing posted, Franks mentioned that they can no longer hang me.. LOL.. But in regards to what you said about one man's liner. All liners that have passed UL testing have been tested already in a perfect chimney- and pass. Insulation is approved on it's own for the manufacture of the insulating blanket. I pulled our UL and it doesn't really say anything about it besides it staying in place.

Thanks. Going with the insulation. Does MagnaFlex sell the insulation kits with the liner?

Whatever product you get, make sure you get the instructions first, before you buy it. One mans liner that is approved with insulation is not the same as the other fellows, who hasn't had the testing done, even if they are exactly the same material and design. In the end, the only way to install an insulated liner is by exactly following the manufacturers instructions. Magnaflex's liner looks like a great idea, but I have yet to see the instructions and UL listing on it. Last I heard he was working on getting it posted to his site.

The trouble is, your liner wasn't tested with a blanket insulation, therefore, it isn't approved to a zero/zero specification when installed with a ceramic fibre blanket - only when installed with thermix. To bad you can't post your actual instruction sheets or ULC certificates (labels that go on the product), 'cause in the end, they are what the insurer is going to want to see. Without clear instructions for your product detailing how ceramic fibre blanket insulation can be used, I could not recommend it's use based on what I have seen here or elsewhere as far as documentation goes.

As for your comment on saying that any approved liner can be brought to a zero/zero install spec with insulation, I clearly say that is not correct. I've seen liners that state they may not be installed with insulation, and others that say their ULC1777/CAN 635 certification is only valid when a specific product is used.

Here is a quote from a competing product's manual:

Insulated Liners
In general insulated liner systems will provide better performance than
non-insulated systems. An insulated system will accumulate less creosote
and provide better draft than a non-insulated system. Insulation is
a code requirement for some installations, see the table on page 5 to
determine if insulation is required for your application. The EXCELiner
system is certified to UL 1777 for zero clearance when it is insulated with
one layer of ¼” foil faced insulation.
The types of insulation accepted are :
- Premier Refractories Canada, Type LT; 8 lb/cu.ft
- All Fabrication Inc., Hi-Temp Blanket; 8 lb/cu.ft
- Thermal Ceramics, Kaowood blanket; 8 lb/cu.ft
- Thermal Ceramics, Cerablanket; 8 lb/cu.ft
- Carborundum, Durablanket; 8 lb/cu.ft

In this instance, using Thermix to insulate this liner is not in accordance with the instructions provided, and would not meet code, as code compliance requires following the manufacturers instructions.

It would seem that your instructions, if based only on the test doc you post, would require only the use of Thermix. Ceramic Fibre blanket is not mentioned in this document. How then would one show their insurer that your product meets the specs when installed with a thermal blanket type insulation?

 

[EJL923]

For what its worth, I am glad i did not insulate. I have an interior chimney about 23' tall, plates at top and bottom. I would say i have some symptoms of overdrafting. And yes, i checked the gaskets for leaks.

 

[oconnor]

MagnaFlex / TheHeatElement

Anything further on your instructions you indicated you would post?

Most major manufacturers can easily provide their install instructions, which include the criteria for meeting UL listing requirements.

I do note you have removed your signature block with link to your company and changed your Forum Name - What's Up?

 

[theheatelement]

Mods took some of my posts as solicitation so I wanted to correct that... I am here for advice and if people need my liner kits I can forward them to either a local dealer or online distributor.

MagnaFlex / TheHeatElement

Anything further on your instructions you indicated you would post?

Most major manufacturers can easily provide their install instructions, which include the criteria for meeting UL listing requirements.

I do note you have removed your signature block with link to your company and changed your Forum Name - What's Up?

 

[theheatelement]

Mods took some of my posts as solicitation so I wanted to correct that... I am here for advice and if people need my liner kits I can forward them to either a local dealer or online distributor.


And no you will not find most UL or warnock hersey testing on other distributors websites, what you will find is a manufacturers instructions that are written by the manufacturer.

MagnaFlex / TheHeatElement

Anything further on your instructions you indicated you would post?

Most major manufacturers can easily provide their install instructions, which include the criteria for meeting UL listing requirements.

I do note you have removed your signature block with link to your company and changed your Forum Name - What's Up?

 

[Marsh]

Installed the MagnaFlex 6" insulated liner on Friday. MagnaFlex worked closely with me on the shipping and was delivered when expected. Besides a few cuts (wear gloves), the install went well and really like the 11" x 11" SS cap they sent. The insulated liner came with everything I needed. Now I just need the Hampton insert!

 

[Rudyjr]

Marsh, Was the liner in sections or continuos? In the pictures I have seen it looked like hose clamps holding sections together. I have a couple of bends to get my liner through and I am worried it may get hung up. Looks like if I am able to use it that it would be considerably better than the wrap as far as not getting trashed pulling it in.