Ugh! Advice needed. Brand new fireplace insert doesn't meet specs.

[matto]

I just had a new Vermont Castings Montpelier fireplace insert installed. I purchased it from a store and they did their own install. I gave them the spec sheet with all measurements and they said it would fit fine.

However I noticed the wood trim on top was getting warm so I read the manual again and it is NOT within the minimum distance to combustible materials. The sides are fine, but I'm supposed to have an additional 14"(yes, FOURTEEN inches) of non-combustible material at the top.

My county requires a building permit so the inspector will be coming to inspect it soon. If he does his job right, it will fail.


1) What would you do? Try to return the stove? Brick the whole wall? Add some ugly trim? Gut the wall and put in a wood stove?

2) How much should the store be responsible to help with any costs? Is this my fault for not reading the fine print? I'm having trouble taking responsibility for this given that I made the conscious decision to press the "easy button". I paid them a lot of money to take care of everything - sell me a stove and install it. And they had all the measurements from the beginning.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Congratulations on you new stove!

Now, take a deep breath and count to 10 slowly.

Are you measuring from the top of the insert, or, the top of the surround?

It doesn't look like 14" from the top of the stove, but maybe?

And, does the inspector have the manual that specs 14"?

I'd let them come, and if the inspection fails, hold the installers to count.

If the installers submitted the permit, I bet you'll be fine.

 

[matto]

Hah, thanks Ed. I'm breathing. I just want to end up with the best solution.

The specs say 47" from the bottom of the stove to the top combustible trim. I have 33". The inspector does have the install manual with the specs.

I submitted the paperwork to the inspector myself, including all the details of the installer and their certifications to work in this county.

If it's not to spec I am tempted to point it out to the inspector to ensure he fails it. The wood gets hot if I burn the stove hot. And I need to burn it hot to heat this place.

 

[matto]

I'm not impressed with the stove's ability to heat my place, nor with the super noisy fan.

If I have to spend any significant money changing the room I would have gotten a different stove, possibly a free-standing wood stove.

 

[jscs.moore]

I just had a new Vermont Castings Montpelier fireplace insert installed. I purchased it from a store and they did their own install. I gave them the spec sheet with all measurements and they said it would fit fine.

However I noticed the wood trim on top was getting warm so I read the manual again and it is NOT within the minimum distance to combustible materials. The sides are fine, but I'm supposed to have an additional 14"(yes, FOURTEEN inches) of non-combustible material at the top.

My county requires a building permit so the inspector will be coming to inspect it soon. If he does his job right, it will fail.


1) What would you do? Try to return the stove? Brick the whole wall? Add some ugly trim? Gut the wall and put in a wood stove?

2) How much should the store be responsible to help with any costs? Is this my fault for not reading the fine print? I'm having trouble taking responsibility for this given that I made the conscious decision to press the "easy button". I paid them a lot of money to take care of everything - sell me a stove and install it. And they had all the measurements from the beginning.

View attachment 218985 View attachment 218986

I wouldn't worry at all! I have a Hampton HI300 insert installed by local dealer almost 3 years ago. We live in a Center Hall Colonial with a brick fireplace and wood mantel trim very similar to the picture you posted. I was concerned that the top of the cast iron surround/face plate was too close to the wood trim on the mantel. The dealer said it did meet specifications by about a half inch or so and also reassured me that the mantel trim would NOT catch fire from using the insert...not matter how hot I burned it. This is now my third burning season and I have never had any issue with the wood trim over the insert overheating or ever coming close to catching fire. Yes, I am within the install specifications noted in the Hampton manual but like I said, my clearances look very, very similar to the picture you posted.

Also, remember that the wood mantel trim survived many years of open fire place burning where previous owners probably more than once packed a bunch of wood in the fire place opening and let it roar away without the trim catching on fire. So I would double check the clearance specifications again and talk to the dealer if need be...but you are probably just fine.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

I'm not impressed with the stove's ability to heat my place, nor with the super noisy fan.

If I have to spend any significant money changing the room I would have gotten a different stove, possibly a free-standing wood stove.

Stressful times, I completely understand. Don't go too negative yet, I bet a block off plate would help. The installer did put in a block off plate, yes?

 

[matto]

This is now my third burning season and I have never had any issue with the wood trim over the insert overheating or ever coming close to catching fire.

Does your trim get warm when you burn it hot?

Here is the spec from the manual. My stove is flush mounted so the clearance to the top combustible trim is supposed to be 47" (mine is 33). Or am I interpreting this wrong?

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Does your trim get warm when you burn it hot?

Here is the spec from the manual. Mine stove is flush mounted so the clearance go the top combustible trim is supposed to be 47" (mine is 33). Or am I interpreting this wrong?

View attachment 218999

All kidding aside, you are right to be concerned that a professional installer crapped out on the install.

Warm trim is ok. Ignoring manual specs is definitely not ok.

Your house, your family, your money.

Do what is necessary. You'll get good honest feedback as to what that is, here.

 

[bholler]

I wouldn't worry at all! I have a Hampton HI300 insert installed by local dealer almost 3 years ago. We live in a Center Hall Colonial with a brick fireplace and wood mantel trim very similar to the picture you posted. I was concerned that the top of the cast iron surround/face plate was too close to the wood trim on the mantel. The dealer said it did meet specifications by about a half inch or so and also reassured me that the mantel trim would NOT catch fire from using the insert...not matter how hot I burned it. This is now my third burning season and I have never had any issue with the wood trim over the insert overheating or ever coming close to catching fire. Yes, I am within the install specifications noted in the Hampton manual but like I said, my clearances look very, very similar to the picture you posted.

Also, remember that the wood mantel trim survived many years of open fire place burning where previous owners probably more than once packed a bunch of wood in the fire place opening and let it roar away without the trim catching on fire. So I would double check the clearance specifications again and talk to the dealer if need be...but you are probably just fine.

The problem with your reasoning is your stove is completly different than his. Clearances vary greatly just because your hampton is fine means nothing about his vc.

 

[bholler]

Does your trim get warm when you burn it hot?

Here is the spec from the manual. My stove is flush mounted so the clearance to the top combustible trim is supposed to be 47" (mine is 33). Or am I interpreting this wrong?

View attachment 218999

Yours clearly does not meet requirements i would call the installers and inform them of the problem and see what they say. I have a few other questiona also. Is the liner insulated? Is there a plate blocking airflow around the liner into the chimney cavity?

 

[illini81]

Hi Matto,

I ran into the exact same issue. I have wood trim/facing that is closer to my wood stove insert, both on the sides and top, than the required clearances. I built some ugly shielding to protect the wood for the time being. Eventually (probably this summer) I am going to replace the wood facing with brick veneer.

I went ahead with the installation, because I really wanted to have the stove installed this winter, and because I was pretty confident that I could use shielding to reduce the temperature of the wood to an acceptable level. I pretty religiously measured the temperature of the wood facing for the first few weeks, and it never got above 130F (usually well below). Personally, I’m not comfortable with this arrangement long-term, but I’m not worried about it for one burning season.

I installed my stove myself, so I knew what I was getting into. If someone else had installed my stove though, I would be tempted to do exactly what you suggested – get the inspector to fail the installation, and then ask the dealer to cover costs associated with making it right. Things to consider:

1. Do you need the stove to heat your house this winter, or is it just a “nice to have”? It could take you months to come to an agreement with the dealer.

2. Do you have an IR gun? If not, I would recommend getting one and measuring the temperature of the wood every 15-30 minutes for the first hour or two while burning a full load.

 

[jscs.moore]

The problem with your reasoning is your stove is completly different than his. Clearances vary greatly just because your hampton is fine means nothing about his vc.

You're exactly correct bholler...my Hampton HI300 is not flush mount and extends out onto the hearth so it is not the same. My apologies to the OP as I didn't realize the VC was flush mount. In the end it does come down to the specs and should be installed within those parameters.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Yours clearly does not meet requirements i would call the installers and inform them of the problem and see what they say. I have a few other questiona also. Is the liner insulated? Is there a plate blocking airflow around the liner into the chimney cavity?

Happy holidays, bholler.

Matto- now that you have bholler's attention, listen closely. He's a no-nonsense resident expert professional. He'll give it to you straight.

 

[matto]

Yours clearly does not meet requirements i would call the installers and inform them of the problem and see what they say. I have a few other questiona also. Is the liner insulated? Is there a plate blocking airflow around the liner into the chimney cavity?

The liner is NOT insulated. They insisted that it was not necessary and they don't do it in my area (lower NY state).

I *think* there is a blocking plate but I will find out. The installer told me he "Sealed it the top of the chimney, and insulated above the stove to prevent cold air from coming down" whatever that means. I was dying with a stomach flu when they did the install so I was unable to watch.

Any thoughts on how to ask them to rectify this? I'd prefer to know what I'm asking for before calling them.

 

[SuperJ]

Does your trim get warm when you burn it hot?

Here is the spec from the manual. My stove is flush mounted so the clearance to the top combustible trim is supposed to be 47" (mine is 33). Or am I interpreting this wrong?

View attachment 218999

Looks to me that your trim falls under the "top trim" (B) rather than mantel (A). The quick fix would be to pull everything out 3 inches so you can tighten the trim clearance. This should get you a bit more heat too.

 

[Doc C]

This sounds like it's entirely on the company that installed it. You gave them the measurements, they ordered the stove and put it in. My first call even before the inspector comes out would be to the installer. But FIRST make sure you understand the clearances 100%. Then Stick to your guns.

I would not try to rectify it in any way yourself because then you are assuming liability and if they are like all the installers in my area then they will blame you for anything that happens.

Your pipe should be insulated....no way around it. I'm sure it will function at a decent level not insulated but the best way is to insulate it to help keep creosote down and help keep draft up!

Also there needs to be a block off plate. Otherwise your losing a lot of heat up your chimney.

Also your insurance agent deals with stoves all the time and can probably give you some insight into any quirks your local area has about new stoves being installed.

 

[Mark8]

Matto, I am dealing with the same kind of situation as you but with a different insert and different problems. I went to my local dealer to have a liner installed on a existing insert, they we're given all the specs, now I'm finding out that they dident use the correct size pipe, used the incorrect flue connector, did not insulate the pipe, did not install the baffle blanket correctly, and (did not install a block off plate, maybe not needed per forum member.)

Few things that don't make sense, these fireplace dealers sell fireplaces, they have subcontractors install them, they never pull permits for all these installs and like in my situation I find out six years later everything was done sub par, I never asked for a cheep job I'm expecting to pay a professional to do it right, and I was never given the option of 6" or 8" pipe. The consensus on this forum was I waited to long to have any recourse, now let's say their poor install burns my house down and kills my family, then do I have any recourse why should there be a statute of limitations on a job That does not meet code.

So why do we have to have a major tragedy and life lost with lawyers and lawsuits to hold these people accountable.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/smoke-in-house-country-elite-e260-insert.165761/

 

[bholler]

Matto, I am dealing with the same kind of situation as you but with a different insert and different problems. I went to my local dealer to have a liner installed on a existing insert, they we're given all the specs, now I'm finding out that they dident use the correct size pipe, used the incorrect flue connector, did not insulate the pipe, did not install the baffle blanket correctly, and (did not install a block off plate, maybe not needed per forum member.)

Few things that don't make sense, these fireplace dealers sell fireplaces, they have subcontractors install them, they never pull permits for all these installs and like in my situation I find out six years later everything was done sub par, I never asked for a cheep job I'm expecting to pay a professional to do it right, and I was never given the option of 6" or 8" pipe. The consensus on this forum was I waited to long to have any recourse, now let's say their poor install burns my house down and kills my family, then do I have any recourse why should there be a statute of limitations on a job That does not meet code.

So why do we have to have a major tragedy and life lost with lawyers and lawsuits to hold these people accountable.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/smoke-in-house-country-elite-e260-insert.165761/

You could absolutly sue them if things are not up to code. What we said you waited to long for was to have them come out and address issues without additional charges.

 

[bholler]

The liner is NOT insulated. They insisted that it was not necessary and they don't do it in my area (lower NY state).

I *think* there is a blocking plate but I will find out. The installer told me he "Sealed it the top of the chimney, and insulated above the stove to prevent cold air from coming down" whatever that means. I was dying with a stomach flu when they did the install so I was unable to watch.

Any thoughts on how to ask them to rectify this? I'd prefer to know what I'm asking for before calling them.

Did they check to see if your chimney has the required clearsnces to combustibles before telling you you dont need insulation? And saying they dont do it in your area is rediculous. All of ny goes by the same code

 

[Mark8]

You could absolutly sue them if things are not up to code. What we said you waited to long for was to have them come out and address issues without additional charges.

Don't get me wrong I understood what you guy were telling me, I was just adding to the conversation as to where does the consumer stand in these types of situations.

If they didn't install something per code and it's been six years why should the consumer have to pay the additional charges once the violation has been discovered. But if there was a house fire and a death the company and the installers would be paying millions of dollars in a lawsuit.

 

[matto]

Did they check to see if your chimney has the required clearsnces to combustibles before telling you you dont need insulation? And saying they dont do it in your area is rediculous. All of ny goes by the same code

Wait, insulated liner is potentially part of the code too?

He told me they don't insulate them and that in our climate you don't need them. I don't imagine I can force them to insulate it if it's not required by law. But chit this just keeps getting worse.

They actually don't subcontract the installs, they do it themselves.

I'll contact Vermont Castings tomorrow and see what they have to say.

 

[bholler]

Don't get me wrong I understood what you guy were telling me, I was just adding to the conversation as to where does the consumer stand in these types of situations.

If they didn't install something per code and it's been six years why should the consumer have to pay the additional charges once the violation has been discovered. But if there was a house fire and a death the company and the installers would be paying millions of dollars in a lawsuit.

Have you called the company and given them a chance to address the issues? If there was anything done against code then you could take them to court at this point those are your two options.

 

[bholler]

Wait, insulated liner is potentially part of the code too?

He told me they don't insulate them and that in our climate you don't need them. I don't imagine I can force them to insulate it if it's not required by law. But chit this just keeps getting worse.

They actually don't subcontract the installs, they do it themselves.

I'll contact Vermont Castings tomorrow and see what they have to say.

Yes unless they can confirm proper clearances from the outside of your masonry chimney to asny combustibles the liner is required to be insulated.

 

[matto]

OK, I finally pulled off the surround to see if I have a block-off plate, and I do not. They seem to have just stuffed some insulation in the hole instead. I can feel the cool air coming down around the gaps in the insulation.

Is there any universe in which they can claim this is a valid installation method?

 

[bholler]

Well if it wasnt fiberglass it would be pretty standard and to code. You are not required to do anything there. But a blockoff plate is much better. I also see they squished the liner to get through the damper. Again not wrong but a half assed way to do it. The thing i do see is how dirty the firebox is. It makes me wonder if they cleaned the chimney properly