Ukraine
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Adios Pantalones
Minister of Fire
The govt tried to break up the protest there with half-measures (non-lethal tactics). I think that shooting would be even worse. Let's hope it doesn't turn into Syria.
Another Syria would be bad. At least both sides are trying to do non violent methods. Last night when I went to bed the police were starting to move on the protesters and cars were dropping more and more protesters off.
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
Modern communications have created an interesting dilemma ..... people see others with "a piece of the pie" and then naturally wonder why they have only crumbs.
BG has visited the Ukraine and probably knows a lot more about this...looks like it's a tug-of-war between Mother Russia and the EU:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/12/10/world/europe/ukraine-timeline.html
BG has visited the Ukraine and probably knows a lot more about this...looks like it's a tug-of-war between Mother Russia and the EU:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/12/10/world/europe/ukraine-timeline.html
Adios Pantalones
Minister of Fire
Ya, the people seem to want (more or less) stronger ties with Europe, the govt is bowing more to Russia. Russia has the ability to cut off a huge amount of their necessities if they feel slighted.
Yeah, but the EU can give them some of these necessities also.
Stories like the following just make you want to say huh?
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304096104579240402194750682
Stories like the following just make you want to say huh?
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304096104579240402194750682
Ukraine is schizophrenic. It's culture is divided. East of the Dnieper is industrial and coal country. They align more with mother Russia (though historically the Ukraine is the mother of Russia). West of the Dnieper is decidedly more European in nature. It was taken over by several European empires in the 16-1800s. That left a decided footprint on the architecture and culture. Although the Dnieper flows through Kiev, culturally it's a western leaning city. Fast forward to today and you have the west leaning ex-president in an assassination attempt, alledged by the strong armed eastern bloc or Russia and their guy now in charge since 2010. He has not been terribly popular. He was jailed for robbery and assault as a youth, then discovered politics and rose to be governor of the Donetsk (eastern) region before becoming president. He has Russia's backing.
Russia views Ukraine as strategically important for resources (coal and wheat) and their warm waters which harbors their Black Sea fleet. In spite of Ukraine's independence it still acts and feels like a Russian state in many ways. But the young people are fed up and tired of the corrupt thuggery of the govt. and want to catch up to the west. Note that there are very few older people in Kiev. Most were killed during the great depression and WWII. Their southern neighbor Bulgaria is also poor, but doing much better (and is much happier) than Ukraine. Bulgaria has little strategic importance to Russia and have been left on their own. Add a very healthy dose of corruption to Ukraine's politics and you have a pretty dysfunctional and untrusted govt.. The GDP of the country is negative. The nation's youth wants a more progressive and profitable nation that provides jobs. They are out of work and thus have plenty of time to protest.
Russia views Ukraine as strategically important for resources (coal and wheat) and their warm waters which harbors their Black Sea fleet. In spite of Ukraine's independence it still acts and feels like a Russian state in many ways. But the young people are fed up and tired of the corrupt thuggery of the govt. and want to catch up to the west. Note that there are very few older people in Kiev. Most were killed during the great depression and WWII. Their southern neighbor Bulgaria is also poor, but doing much better (and is much happier) than Ukraine. Bulgaria has little strategic importance to Russia and have been left on their own. Add a very healthy dose of corruption to Ukraine's politics and you have a pretty dysfunctional and untrusted govt.. The GDP of the country is negative. The nation's youth wants a more progressive and profitable nation that provides jobs. They are out of work and thus have plenty of time to protest.
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Adios Pantalones
Minister of Fire
My understanding is that they are physically hooked to too much Russian infrastructure to just switch. Imagine if they just cut all infrastructure leading to your town, and made them find other sources. Now do that with a small country.
They also drink way too much. I went into a large supermarket near the main train station. The first 5 aisles in the store were strictly booze, mostly vodkas. The next two were sweets. The remaining 5 were for normal groceries.
Adios Pantalones
Minister of Fire
Wait wait wait- are you telling me that they actually drink lots of hard booze in western Europe?
That is sort of correct, but on a deeper level. Several other Russian states cut their ties with the Russian infrastructure, like Bulgaria. They had a rough time economically at first, but have come out stronger for it. The problem with the Ukraine is Russia depends on it the way a bully depends on his victims for a steady stream of protection racket income.
Adios Pantalones
Minister of Fire
It may have been slightly easier to get a full divorce when times were really bad. It's sort of like the dilemma of people dealing with conditions by degree, rather than kick-in-the-pants crisis.
Interesting discussion about this concept on the deforestation of ancient Easter Island: http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2...-on-easter-island-a-new-even-scarier-scenario
Interesting analogy. It's very convenient to have a neighbor you can pollute as a workaround your environmental laws. Russia's thuggery in the Ukraine during the the Soviet era is pretty dark stuff. But now, unless Russia builds a new port for the Black Sea fleet they are not going to release their grip on the Crimea. That foot in the door made it hard for Ukraine to make a clean break.
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Um, eastern Europe. I have never seen more booze for sale in one location. And this was a grocery store.
Adios Pantalones
Minister of Fire
right. End of the day for me. Just had a performance review, and am running low on coffee.
The big pressure right now on Yanukovych is economic. The monetary system is at risk and the bankers and oligarchs sense it. They are dropping support for his policies. He needs to concede or he's done for.
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