Unions

[Seasoned Oak]

I for one love unions, I work in a heavily unionized industry. The company I work for is non union and treats us very good.hope ya get a big raise.

They take the money the unions are soaking out of the company and give it too the employees instead. Good policy.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

, you will have to pay those people a living wage. If we follow the "don't increase wages/reform labor/etc" train of thought, you end up with folks on government assistance. What happens when you cut those welfare programs? Folks dying on the streets. This literally happened in this country until labor reform and welfare programs were instituted. Perhaps you forgot about those folks born in and before the depression. Should we just go back to children running fiber mills?

I was born into a poor family in the Appalachians mountains. I know what poor is. And there nothing like it in most of america today most especially in the very same town. Why ? because there is so much opportunity. Its everywhere if you want to see it. All My siblings including myself are many times wealthier than my parents were. Not because of unions , or Govt handouts. Because we all worked cuz we didnt want to live poor like we did as children. We saw all that opportunity and grabbed it. Of course we could have blamed our plight on society like so many and cried the victim and until now still be poor and complaining. That opportunity is still there in every town if you want to see it ,or you can see dispair depending on how you look at it.

 

[pjohnson]

Why shouldn’t wealthy corporations be forced to pay a living wage? Let’s pick on Walmart not known for high pay. Each Walmart store is estimated to cost taxpayers 1 to 1.75 million to take care of Walmart’s low paid workers, food stamps, Medicare, housing assistance and other government programs. Thats 6.2 billion we pay to support Walmart. Meanwhile the Walton sons and daughters are the richest family in America worth 136 billion, worth more then 43 percent of the population combined. The fast food industry employees use another 7 billion in government programs. If wealthy corporations were forced to pay a living wage the rich could have had a bigger tax cut. I know they aren’t cutting my taxes.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Many people qualify for Govt programs simply because they have a lot of kids and no skills so of course they are on Govt programs to make up for the income gap between their wage with no skills and the size family they chose to support. The same person with no children may not be on nor qualify for Govt programs. Wall mart isnt going to pay you more cuz you have a big family but the Govt will. Is that a wise decision? lots of differing opinions on that. Perhaps walmart should not be getting those sweetheart deals of no property taxes for 10 years where communities fall over each other to lure them in,like they did in our town. The biggest beef i have with wall mart is they buy everything from china. Perhaps some hefty import tariffs would offset all those govt programs their employees are on.

 

[begreen]

I was born into a poor family in the Appalachians mountains. I know what poor is. And there nothing like it in most of america today most especially in the very same town. Why ? because there is so much opportunity. Its everywhere if you want to see it. All My siblings including myself are many times wealthier than my parents were. Not because of unions , or Govt handouts. Because we all worked cuz we didnt want to live poor like we did as children. We saw all that opportunity and grabbed it. Of course we could have blamed our plight on society like so many and cried the victim and until now still be poor and complaining. That opportunity is still there in every town if you want to see it ,or you can see dispair depending on how you look at it.

What you have done is admirable and my guess is that your parents helped encourage you in getting ahead. But the balance of wealth has changed a lot, at least we were young lads. Example, I put myself through college with a Basic Education Opportunity Grant. My tuition at state college was $600 per semester which I paid for with a part-time job while in school. Try doing that today. Our rent in Seattle when we were starting out in 1980 was $115/month. Try finding anything like that in Seattle for ten times that amount today. Kids are starting out in life with more debt than ever.
Going back to rural towns, I have been in parts of Appalachia where there is little hope of getting ahead unless you move out. There are no jobs and folks get by, some have no education to speak of. Some are lucky to have electricity in some areas as unbelievable as that may seem. It's hard to think of getting ahead when you are dealing with the depressing fact of where the next meal is coming from.

 

[bholler]

Many people qualify for Govt programs simply because they have a lot of kids and no skills so of course they are on Govt programs to make up for the income gap between their wage with no skills and the size family they chose to support. The same person with no children may not be on nor qualify for Govt programs. Wall mart isnt going to pay you more cuz you have a big family but the Govt will. Is that a wise decision? lots of differing opinions on that. Perhaps walmart should not be getting those sweetheart deals of no property taxes for 10 years where communities fall over each other to lure them in,like they did in our town. The biggest beef i have with wall mart is they buy everything from china. Perhaps some hefty import tariffs would offset all those govt programs their employees are on.

No they would just raise prices and cut employment costs any way they could to maintain their corporate profits. Tariffs are paid for by the working people. I do agree about not giving them tax breaks though.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

My parents encouraged it by setting an example of what we didnt want from life. Nothing else. They lived the life they chose and we chose a much different path . Also we didnt rely on Govt handouts to do it although we all would have qualified. My point is if your going to be successful it will be 99% your effort alone. Dont blame anyone else if it doesnt happen. But you can blame student loans,lots of free subsidized Govt money for jacking up the price tuition ,same thing with Health Care. The Govt does its best to destroy the free market at every turn.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

No they would just raise prices and cut employment costs any way they could to maintain their corporate profits. Tariffs are paid for by the working people. I do agree about not giving them tax breaks though.

Walmarts whole business model is buy things from china for 25c and sell it here for $10. If anything ever happens to prevent that the whole company will collapse. Go on alibabas website and see what some of these things actually cost ,of course you may have to buy 1000 at a time.

 

[festerw]

It's not illegal to be stupid. That turnover is going to cost them much more than that extra dollar.


Penny wise, pound foolish.

Agreed, the problem is turnover isn't an easily quantified number like payroll is.

Unless you have been both an employer and an employee you have only seen this from one side of the equation. Being an employer really opens your eyes to the other side of the coin. Make payroll, pay endless bills ,suffer losses, work long hours for nothing ,then come back and make judgements.

I've been on both sides, there's a lot to be said for putting in 40 and going home. IMO the stress wasn't worth the money, for some folks it is.

Guys, I think you’re taking offense at perceived implications, and missing my point. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with being a laborer, or a teacher. Do what makes you happy, and choose your own trade-offs. Despite SpaceBus’s claims to the contrary, no one is forcing you to choose any one path over another.

My sole issue is the collusion with your workers, whether called legal or not, to hold an employer hostage for wages higher than your choices would have you expect. Stand on your own two feet, folks.

.. and with that, I’m out. Have fun with your whining about life’s circumstances, I have no interest in that.

History is full of corporations colluding to keep things in their favor.

You keep missing the point that in some labor jobs there is nearly no other way to raise wages. It would be take the money or get out. Full stop the cost of living is going up and wages aren't.

No one im america is dying in the streets due to being overworked ,your way more likely to die from obesity. From an employer point of view everyone is over paid. Of course the employees see it differently. The govt dont set a minimun wage for employers. Hell you can start a hundred business that lose money and the Govt dont care about you ,wheres my right to a minimum wage ,a living wage or whatever you want to call it. I have a family too . What employees have is a guarantee that they will take a fixed minimum amount home every week ,employers have NO SUCH guarantee. Sometimes my living wage is ZERO or less than zero. So theres 2 ways to look at this issue and many other issues.

From being overworked, no. However there are plenty who have to choose between medicine or food.

One could also argue that if you can't afford to give employees a living wage that you've grown too fast or haven't priced your product correctly. I know there are plenty of variables, just playing devil's advocate.

I for one love unions, I work in a heavily unionized industry. The company I work for is non union and treats us very good. Every year they they take the average of the unionized companies and give us a raise and pay us more to keep the union out. Plus a very generous profit sharing that pays us 4 or 5 times what the union guys get for profit sharing. So I say thanks union guys hope ya get a big raise.

And if every employer was like yours there wouldn't be a need for unions.

The problem becomes even companies are concerned with lining the pockets of their shareholders over their employees. Yes both are important but without employees your company doesn't exist.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Without shareholders, it doesn't either. Just figured I'd point out that they were brought in for a reason.

Now, Warren Buffett can teach us a good lesson here in regards to keeping the shareholders happy. If a company is stable, and their EPS continue to grow in a predictable way, share price will go up. Paying attention to company details vs only the numbers is a major difference between his philosophy and that of his teacher, Graham.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Why shouldn’t wealthy corporations be forced to pay a living wage? Let’s pick on Walmart not known for high pay. Each Walmart store is estimated to cost taxpayers 1 to 1.75 million to take care of Walmart’s low paid workers, food stamps, Medicare, housing assistance and other government programs. Thats 6.2 billion we pay to support Walmart. Meanwhile the Walton sons and daughters are the richest family in America worth 136 billion, worth more then 43 percent of the population combined.

The media focuses on Tax on salaries but most Billionairs dont earn their billions through salaries at all. Its a bait and switch. I rarely hear the media address the disparity of tax rates on dividends and capitol gains vs Salaries. Some calling for a wealth tax. Its simple, why should the tax rate of a billionaire making milions a of dollars in dividends and capitol gains while sleeping, be roughly half the rate of a policeman or fireman making 50 to 70 k a year risking their life. There lies the real abuse and scandle and a big part of why the rich are getting richer at a much faster rate as everyone else . Even warren buffet pointed that very disparity out and was largely ignored as far as tax policy changes. Nothing changed!

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Are you suggesting lowering all taxes to the capital gains rate? A flat tax at that rate would be awesome!

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Are you suggesting lowering all taxes to the capital gains rate? A flat tax at that rate would be awesome!

No im suggesting making capitol gains tax of 20%(rich peoples tax)the same as tax on salaries 39% (everyone elses tax rate). why should the rich pay half the tax rate rate as everyone else just because the bulk of their income is from a different category. Better yet make the top tax on salaries 20% and the CG tax 39% . At least until we have a balanced budget ,after that they can start to lower both. But of course we know they will always spend more than they take in.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Up the capital gains to 39 and make the top income tier 20, and be prepared for your retirement savings to crash when the stock market does. There will be no reason to invest in it then.

Now who would that hurt? The rich person with 25% of their assets in it, or the pensioner where the pension's assets are invested in the stock market? Most of the US is betting pretty heavily on the market.

I suppose there is 1 other outcome that is possible. Hold the shares less than 1 year and any gains stay as regular income. You could set off a wave of churning never before seen! I'm not sure how that would affect things. Could be good, could be bad.


Cut every tax bracket and make all income taxes the same and all taxation will be fair. Close all loopholes. Make everything accounted for on the 1040EZ. You made x amount, pay x%. That's as fair as it can get.

Congress critters will never do it though. It's too easy to keep complaining and using it to fundraise.

 

[ABMax24]

Now who would that hurt? The rich person with 25% of their assets in it, or the pensioner where the pension's assets are invested in the stock market? Most of the US is betting pretty heavily on the market.

I think this is a very important point. So many people rely on the stock market as their investment vehicle. This is part of the mentality that makes corporations want profit over everything else, every hardworking person that puts money in the market expects a return whether it be through dividends or an increase in value, in turn making corporations the monsters they are, taking profitable gains over any social issue, such as outsourcing jobs to Mexico or China.

If there was an easier way to invest money in smaller local businesses maybe this could change. These businesses could have the freedom to buy non-chinese made products, hire local people at rates higher than the big corporations, and because local people would invest in these businesses they would shop there as well.

The fact of the matter is we all have a choice and can play a a part. As a Canadian I chose to buy Canadian products when I can, and American and European as second and third choice when I can't. This is my way of supporting local workers, walking into the local butcher shop to buy local meat, buying a Swedish made saw from a local dealer instead of a Chinese model sold by a big box store.

To tie this all back, unions and non-union labor costs more than outsourcing that labor elsewhere, but the fact is there are benefits far bigger than the price tag or return on an investment to be seen by using our hard-earned dollars to support like minded individuals in our own countries.

 

[SpaceBus]

I too was born in Appalachia and my kin still live there, in poverty. This isn't because of unions or not, this is just because there are no jobs and the populations are mostly retired anyway. This is just the truth in rural america, but also off topic.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Investors will NOT stop investing because the tax rate goes up. Making the CG and Div. tax rate low to "spur" investment is the story we are fed by those pulling the levers to keep those rates at half of what the masses pay. But it may make municipal tax free bonds a much more desirable investment vehicle. You just cant justify charging 39% on middle class salaries and charging wealthiest people in the country 15 to 20% on millions and billions of investment earnings. There is your income inequality i keep hearing about.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I too was born in Appalachia and my kin still live there, in poverty. This isn't because of unions or not, this is just because there are no jobs and the populations are mostly retired anyway. This is just the truth in rural america, but also off topic.

3 of my 5 siblings still live in the same town we were born in. None of us are remotely in poverty as our parents were. We simply take advantage of whatever opportunity there is and there is opportunity everywhere. In my case i created my own job. My sister worked at the post office and my other sister works for a Service contractor. True there is not many factories but try to find a plumber or an electrician. Heck they had to send someone from New York State to fix my refrigerator here in central PA. I can think of a dozen fields desperately in need of people right now. You have to look at the glass as half full ,not half empty. For those that do there are not enough hours in the week ,for those that dont ,there are no jobs.

 

[SpaceBus]

3 of my 5 siblings still live in the same town we were born in. None of us are remotely in poverty as our parents were. We simply take advantage of whatever opportunity there is and there is opportunity everywhere. In my case i created my own job. My sister worked at the post office and my other sister works for a Service contractor. True there is not many factories but try to find a plumber or an electrician. Heck they had to send someone from New York State to fix my refrigerator here in central PA. I can think of a dozen fields desperately in need of people right now. You have to look at the glass as half full ,not half empty. For those that do there are not enough hours in the week ,for those that dont ,there are no jobs.

In a majority of these smaller towns there are less jobs available than residents. Not everyone can work for the state government either. Your family is one exception among the statistics. The overwhelming majority of rural Americans are below the poverty line and underemployed.

Your plumber had to come from a long distance because your tiny rural town cannot support a full time plumbing company. This could be from too little income among the population or just too few customers. Where I live in one of the least densely populated areas most companies service most of or the whole state. This is just the reality of living in a rural area.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

The population is about 10,000 with several towns around me within a few miles of 10000 ore so. Those that want to work are always working ,the rest do nothing and complain there are no jobs. Been like that for as long as i can remember. A lot of the joblessness is SELF inflicted. Im always looking for help in my business ,usually i just have my kids helping or just do everything myself. Many have no skills and no work ethic but want top dollar. Hard to compete with the govt using my tax dollars to give away for free what im trying to sell which is housing.

 

[bholler]

3 of my 5 siblings still live in the same town we were born in. None of us are remotely in poverty as our parents were. We simply take advantage of whatever opportunity there is and there is opportunity everywhere. In my case i created my own job. My sister worked at the post office and my other sister works for a Service contractor. True there is not many factories but try to find a plumber or an electrician. Heck they had to send someone from New York State to fix my refrigerator here in central PA. I can think of a dozen fields desperately in need of people right now. You have to look at the glass as half full ,not half empty. For those that do there are not enough hours in the week ,for those that dont ,there are no jobs.

We work in your area some because there are no sweeps in the area. The reason for that is the median income is pretty low so many of the people can't afford to pay for skilled labor. Yes there are clearly people there that can but I personally wouldn't base a service business there just to need to drive to find customers who can afford to pay.

 

[SpaceBus]

For one, nobody wants to work. Like, let's just get that right out in the open. We all like to be occupied with meaningful tasks, but that is rarely equivalent to employment. Folks that are proud of working more than 40 hours a week confuse me. Why have pride in the fact that you can't make ends meet at 40 hrs? 40 hrs a week is a lot of time to invest into anything that's not for your own family, so why is it insane to say that everyone working full time should be able support a family? Honestly, 40 hours should be more than enough for one family, but I'll probably get called lazy for that. Don't we all want more time with our families? Spending time doing things we like to do? For some reason I think people forget that nobody made a choice to be born into this world, but we also don't have a choice about paying to live.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Investors will NOT stop investing because the tax rate goes up. Making the CG and Div. tax rate low to "spur" investment is the story we are fed by those pulling the levers to keep those rates at half of what the masses pay. But it may make municipal tax free bonds a much more desirable investment vehicle.

So, you suggest investors will go for munis. Fair enough. I'm sure that you know the rate is only part of your return. Price is a big factor as well. Your yield is calculated by dividing what they pay you by the price you pay for the bond.

So, more people want munis. What does that do? It drives up the price, or allows the bond to be issued at a lower rate. Both lower the yield. Ouch, you've just caused another old person to choose between food and medicine.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

For one, nobody wants to work. Like, let's just get that right out in the open. We all like to be occupied with meaningful tasks, but that is rarely equivalent to employment. Folks that are proud of working more than 40 hours a week confuse me. Why have pride in the fact that you can't make ends meet at 40 hrs? 40 hrs a week is a lot of time to invest into anything that's not for your own family, so why is it insane to say that everyone working full time should be able support a family? Honestly, 40 hours should be more than enough for one family, but I'll probably get called lazy for that. Don't we all want more time with our families? Spending time doing things we like to do? For some reason I think people forget that nobody made a choice to be born into this world, but we also don't have a choice about paying to live.

If we were in a hunter gatherer society where you only need the knowledge of where to find food people still need to work. They need to find food. If they dont, they will starve. Same as here.

If one is willing, they are free to squat in some national park. They're big enough nobody will bother them.

 

[bholler]

For one, nobody wants to work. Like, let's just get that right out in the open. We all like to be occupied with meaningful tasks, but that is rarely equivalent to employment. Folks that are proud of working more than 40 hours a week confuse me. Why have pride in the fact that you can't make ends meet at 40 hrs? 40 hrs a week is a lot of time to invest into anything that's not for your own family, so why is it insane to say that everyone working full time should be able support a family? Honestly, 40 hours should be more than enough for one family, but I'll probably get called lazy for that. Don't we all want more time with our families? Spending time doing things we like to do? For some reason I think people forget that nobody made a choice to be born into this world, but we also don't have a choice about paying to live.

Many of the people saying you should just go work more are the same people complaining that we no longer have a strong family structure and that parenting sucks. Yes if people are working 2 jobs or equivalent hours to make ends meet parenting is going to suck.