Urgent Help Needed - Smoke leaking from pipe joins

[Gina]

So the owner and installer are coming at 10am tomorrow. I will have them remove the mesh. I have the one inch screen you are talking about. I used it when building the chicken coop and I have wire cutters. So once I see what they removed I'll be able to tell you if this was the cause. I'll ask if they can put the 1 inch mesh up. The chap came after hours after he had finished his regular work. It was dark. It seemed like they felt they were doing me a favor. We don't have a lot of options way up here. I feel like they should leave some space in their schedules for emergencies but I don't know how the industry works. If that's too much to ask. I have always been able to clean and inspect my own chimney from my own roof. This is first house where I just can't go up that high and the pitch is very steep. I wonder if I can undo the pipe in the attic and clean from the attic up and from the attic down. I hate relying on folks. We will have been without heat in most of the house for almost a week. I'm a DIY nut so this has been hard on me.

 

[Gina]

Also, having that much buildup in the chamber of a catalytic stove would mean the catalyst has never been active. Get it up to temp once and the searing 1100-1600 degree heat of the cat burns it all out. A properly operating catalytic VC may will be caked with creosote inside the firebox, and sometimes the flue isn't all that great - but the cat chamber is nearly always clean as a whistle unless its failed completely.

This is very interesting. I do have a lot of creosote inside the firebox. There was almost none in the chimney after last season when it was cleaned. When he came out on Tuesday he also said there was just not much in chimney at all. My first season the CAT was almost always as clean as a whistle but this winter it has gotten more and more build up. I really want a cat temperature probe now.

 

[Gina]

The video showing smoke coming out of the joints could have been taken at my house! And "whuffing" definitely happened on Saturday morning. That's what made me turn and look at the stove. Thank you so much for recalling this. I'm going to insist we inspect that chamber tomorrow.

 

[fire_man]

I have the one inch screen you are talking about. I used it when building the chicken coop and I have wire cutters. I have always been able to clean and inspect my own chimney from my own roof. This is first house where I just can't go up that high and the pitch is very steep. I wonder if I can undo the pipe in the attic and clean from the attic up and from the attic down. I hate relying on folks. We will have been without heat in most of the house for almost a week. I'm a DIY nut so this has been hard on me.

Wow - your cap has a 1" screen? In that case it's hard to imagine it clogging so quickly from one day to the next. I was wondering, too, if you could go into the attic and clean from there up. At this point the installer is comming soon but I feel your pain since I am also a DIY and it would drive me nuts as well not being able to reach it. If it were me and if the joints were accessible I would inspect from the attic as you say. Especially with the house being so cold!!

 

[BigFir]

Wow - your cap has a 1" screen? In that case it's hard to imagine it clogging so quickly from one day to the next. I was wondering, too, if you could go into the attic and clean from there up. At this point the installer is comming soon but I feel your pain since I am also a DIY and it would drive me nuts as well not being able to reach it. If it were me and if the joints were accessible I would inspect from the attic as you say. Especially with the house being so cold!!

The 1" screen has not been installed yet, it is a smaller screen currently.

 

[edthesweep]

Interesting Ed. I clean mostly from the bottom too. I work solo so I prefer to keep an eye on what's happening inside as I clean so I can pace my clean so the vacuum keeps up and no soot escapes.

While I endeavour to get topside on everyone if the access is terrible and I can clearly see the cap or there is no cap (common in these parts on a clay lined masonry chimney) than sometimes I won't, as I charge more if it's tough access and if I don't feel I really need to get up there then I'll skip it. Or sometimes I'll run a video recording flashlight I have that snaps onto my rods up to have a quick check. It's super fast to deploy so for me sometimes I feel it's a better option than going topside.

Im always at the bottom while sweeping but then go to top to look down flue, check cap, crown, masonry, etc. Do you offer to install a cap when they dont have one?
Yes that does sound like a better option for some cases, what brand is it?
I must confess most of the time I have a helper and go to the top while he sweeps.

 

[edthesweep]

So the owner and installer are coming at 10am tomorrow. I will have them remove the mesh. I have the one inch screen you are talking about. I used it when building the chicken coop and I have wire cutters. So once I see what they removed I'll be able to tell you if this was the cause. I'll ask if they can put the 1 inch mesh up. The chap came after hours after he had finished his regular work. It was dark. It seemed like they felt they were doing me a favor. We don't have a lot of options way up here. I feel like they should leave some space in their schedules for emergencies but I don't know how the industry works. If that's too much to ask. I have always been able to clean and inspect my own chimney from my own roof. This is first house where I just can't go up that high and the pitch is very steep. I wonder if I can undo the pipe in the attic and clean from the attic up and from the attic down. I hate relying on folks. We will have been without heat in most of the house for almost a week. I'm a DIY nut so this has been hard on me.

How'd it go?
maybe put a permanent ladder on the roof to walk on - Like a hook ladder, one designed for walking on the roof that has raised rungs?

 

[DUMF]

Roof ladders are mandated in parts of Scandinavian homes. It's tough to find any here. I couldn't.
But--on our 10 pitch roof I have a carabiner bolted into the ridge. Then a 9mm climbing line tied into the biner down to the gutter for safe climbing access to the pipes for the once a year cleaning. Tie a bunch of figure eights into the line for grabbing. The line stays out all year on the roof. There have been very odd times when through DUMF laziness or wet wood I've had to clean out a clogged cap screen, usually in a warm winter period like in the 40's F.

 

[edthesweep]

Roof ladders are mandated in parts of Scandinavian homes. It's tough to find any here. I couldn't.
But--on our 10 pitch roof I have a carabiner bolted into the ridge. Then a 9mm climbing line tied into the biner down to the gutter for safe climbing access to the pipes for the once a year cleaning. Tie a bunch of figure eights into the line for grabbing. The line stays out all year on the roof. There have been very odd times when through DUMF laziness or wet wood I've had to clean out a clogged cap screen, usually in a warm winter period like in the 40's F.

How often do you have to replace the rope?
I assume the sun/elements must take a toll, no?
Great way to make getting up there easier and safer tho - hell to make it possible

 

[jetsam]

I've had a mesh cap clog when the flue itself was almost perfectly clean. On a long flue like that, ice might also be a hazard up towards the cool top, depending on your weather and wood moisture.

If it's not the cap, it may be time to run an inspection camera from the firebox up the flue, then down the flue from the cap side, and see what the problem is. Sounds like it should be pretty large/obvious once you get a visual, whatever it is.

If your run is pretty straight, you can do what I do at sweeping time, and put a work light inside the cold firebox, then look down at it from the top.

 

[edthesweep]

I've had a mesh cap clog when the flue itself was almost perfectly clean. On a long flue like that, ice might also be a hazard up towards the cool top, depending on your weather and wood moisture.

If it's not the cap, it may be time to run an inspection camera from the firebox up the flue, then down the flue from the cap side, and see what the problem is. Sounds like it should be pretty large/obvious once you get a visual, whatever it is.

unless its something with the air intake on the stove
.....still wondering y it drafts ( all be it poorly, but at least somewhat compared to not at all) with doors open
op have you tried with door just cracked? forgive me if you stated and I just do not remember

 

[DUMF]

How often do you have to replace the rope?
I assume the sun/elements must take a toll, no?
Great way to make getting up there easier and safer tho - hell to make it possible

No, the line is climbing line with UV mantle protection. It's been up for +/- 4 years with no deterioration; good question though.
The "roof biner " is a standard unit that fits over the ridge for roofers, or those of us who rock climb. It isn't difficult to install once you're up there and secure, and have some roof cement, drill, and SS screws. Google or Bing it. I also use rubber climbing shoes on the roof for grip ( or roofers have 'special' rubber soled shoes for working).
Hope this doesn't take away some business.

 

[fire_man]

So the owner and installer are coming at 10am tomorrow.

Can't wait to see how this goes. I'm voting on a cap clog.

 

[fibels]

Thank you. I'll take any suggestions! I called the installer and asked them if the person checked the cap and if not that I wanted it checked asap. I know I have one because I was having birds come down constantly (really mean birds who pecked me when I rescued them - starlings I think) and so I told them to put up a mesh shield or whatever stops birds.

The CAT has a direction? It looks the same on every side to me. Do you mean maybe I have it in upside down or else back to front? How can I tell. The reason I am so interested in this is because when I cleaned out the stove after the Saturday incident, the CAT "area" above and below the honeycomb thing was filled with quite large bits. Usually I have one or two clogged honey combs. This was alot. Now should it matter if the damper is not engaged? But still it was unusual.

I wonder if the chimney is tall enough?Does it go over the peak of the roof ?

 

[begreen]

Can you post a further back shot of this location so we can see the full ceiling support assembly. In the bedroom above is there chimney pipe?

 

[fibels]

Hello. I have a vermont casting encore with a cat. I have used wood stoves for cooking and heating for over 10 year in previous homes). It has been installed in my new (well very old victorian) house for 14 months. It sits in the LR and goes into the ceiling with one elbow join (I wanted to use the hole from the previous stove that was there). It then goes up through an upstairs bedroom straight, up into the attic (which is like a full third story) and then has one more elbow join to get it out of the roof. It was professionally installed. My wood was delivered last year from a reputable source. All hardwood. The stove functioned perfectly all winter last year. I had enough wood left over for this year so I stacked it on pallets correctly and it has had another year to season even more.

I clean the stove once a week including the cat (v. gently) according to my manual.

This fall when I started using the stove again everything worked perfectly. By working perfectly I mean that I get a fire started with kindling. Add some small logs. Add medium logs and wait a few hours for a coal bed. Then load in a couple of big logs through the top and engage the cat/ damper. Before I go to bed I un-engage the cat, add more wood to the coal bed, reengage it and sometimes turn the air down. In the morning I un-egange the cat, add small logs wait about an hour then load it up and engage the cat and leave for work. Using it this way means I don't ever have to kindle a fire in the morning or evening because of the coal bed. I only kindle a fire when I let it go out deliberately to clean it. So to me this is wonderful and I thought I was using the stove correctly.

On saturday we had temps of -20 degrees in the morning. When I woke it followed my normal procedure. Suddenly the stove started "burping" smoke through the top loading door, the front doors and all the chimney joins in the LR including where it enters the ceiling. I called the installer. They said to shut the stove down. I carried the smoldering wood outside and it took a long time to clear the house of smoke. On Tuesday they were able to send someone out. They felt the chimney pipe was obscured. He cleaned it from the bottom up (so not from the roof). he said there was barely any creosote build up at all. he couldn't get a fire to draw (using cardboard and small kindling). the smoke just pours out of the doors and the joins.

Then they said the back drafting and poor draw was likely a very cold chimney. The temp here now is 30 degrees. So 50 degrees warmer. I was told to start a very very hot fire and warm the chimney. Last night I did that. Smoke billowed from the doors and the joins. Closing the doors put the fire out. I kept the doors open and while it took an hour finally I could feel that the chimney was warm in the upstairs bedroom. The chimney pipe in the living room was almost too hot to touch.

But still with that hot hot fire, adding anything larger than two inches would give me smoke again. Engaging the cat - smoke. I was finally able to close the doors and not have smoke but I can't add any new wood that's not tiny tiny without getting smoke.

What is so odd to me is that the firebox clearly fills with smoke when I add wood. I can see it through the glass doors. Then it starts to leak out of the chimney joins. So this morning I checked that the damper and air flow system inside the stove was not blocking anything and I can put my hand up and into the chimney pipe. It's hard but my hand is small. So the opening from the firebox to the chimney is there. The smoke just won't go up the chimney. The installer has no good ideas for me yet.

I'm trying to attach pics. One from the initial installation. Then one of the spot where most of the smoke is coming out where it goes through the first story ceiling/ floor into bedroom. One of the stack. You can see the smoke damage on the joins that wasn't there on Friday night. There is no smoke leakage in the upper bedroom or attic. Those pipes are double walled I think is the term.

Any ideas or help would be appreciated. It is my primary source of heat and the house is in the 40's.

When I enlarged the photo of the exterior pipe you can see the pipe just below the cap is smudged with creosote.So it could be that the cap is too clogged.We'll have to wait and see.

 

[DUMF]

When in doubt, use the K.I.S.S. technique.
It's da CAP SCREEN.
Place your bets here _________.
If I am wrong, you may have my first born.

 

[Squisher]

Im always at the bottom while sweeping but then go to top to look down flue, check cap, crown, masonry, etc. Do you offer to install a cap when they dont have one?
Yes that does sound like a better option for some cases, what brand is it?
I must confess most of the time I have a helper and go to the top while he sweeps.

The flashlight is from Perkins. The flashcorder. No live feed but high quality video and a nice holder for it that keeps it central in the flue.

I should offer caps it seems like a good majority of masonry chimneys are just a clay tile protruding from the crown a few inches.

 

[begreen]

Cleaned up thread to keep it on track. Waiting for word from Gina about what today's inspection found.

 

[fibels]

Hello. I have a vermont casting encore with a cat. I have used wood stoves for cooking and heating for over 10 year in previous homes). It has been installed in my new (well very old victorian) house for 14 months. It sits in the LR and goes into the ceiling with one elbow join (I wanted to use the hole from the previous stove that was there). It then goes up through an upstairs bedroom straight, up into the attic (which is like a full third story) and then has one more elbow join to get it out of the roof. It was professionally installed. My wood was delivered last year from a reputable source. All hardwood. The stove functioned perfectly all winter last year. I had enough wood left over for this year so I stacked it on pallets correctly and it has had another year to season even more.

I clean the stove once a week including the cat (v. gently) according to my manual.

This fall when I started using the stove again everything worked perfectly. By working perfectly I mean that I get a fire started with kindling. Add some small logs. Add medium logs and wait a few hours for a coal bed. Then load in a couple of big logs through the top and engage the cat/ damper. Before I go to bed I un-engage the cat, add more wood to the coal bed, reengage it and sometimes turn the air down. In the morning I un-egange the cat, add small logs wait about an hour then load it up and engage the cat and leave for work. Using it this way means I don't ever have to kindle a fire in the morning or evening because of the coal bed. I only kindle a fire when I let it go out deliberately to clean it. So to me this is wonderful and I thought I was using the stove correctly.

On saturday we had temps of -20 degrees in the morning. When I woke it followed my normal procedure. Suddenly the stove started "burping" smoke through the top loading door, the front doors and all the chimney joins in the LR including where it enters the ceiling. I called the installer. They said to shut the stove down. I carried the smoldering wood outside and it took a long time to clear the house of smoke. On Tuesday they were able to send someone out. They felt the chimney pipe was obscured. He cleaned it from the bottom up (so not from the roof). he said there was barely any creosote build up at all. he couldn't get a fire to draw (using cardboard and small kindling). the smoke just pours out of the doors and the joins.

Then they said the back drafting and poor draw was likely a very cold chimney. The temp here now is 30 degrees. So 50 degrees warmer. I was told to start a very very hot fire and warm the chimney. Last night I did that. Smoke billowed from the doors and the joins. Closing the doors put the fire out. I kept the doors open and while it took an hour finally I could feel that the chimney was warm in the upstairs bedroom. The chimney pipe in the living room was almost too hot to touch.

But still with that hot hot fire, adding anything larger than two inches would give me smoke again. Engaging the cat - smoke. I was finally able to close the doors and not have smoke but I can't add any new wood that's not tiny tiny without getting smoke.

What is so odd to me is that the firebox clearly fills with smoke when I add wood. I can see it through the glass doors. Then it starts to leak out of the chimney joins. So this morning I checked that the damper and air flow system inside the stove was not blocking anything and I can put my hand up and into the chimney pipe. It's hard but my hand is small. So the opening from the firebox to the chimney is there. The smoke just won't go up the chimney. The installer has no good ideas for me yet.

I'm trying to attach pics. One from the initial installation. Then one of the spot where most of the smoke is coming out where it goes through the first story ceiling/ floor into bedroom. One of the stack. You can see the smoke damage on the joins that wasn't there on Friday night. There is no smoke leakage in the upper bedroom or attic. Those pipes are double walled I think is the term.

Any ideas or help would be appreciated. It is my primary source of heat and the house is in the 40's.

Gina where are you ?What's going on ?

 

[Babaganoosh]

Trolled....

 

[madison]

I'm betting the cap screen. Especially with fresh snow on the roof. A moist snow can accumulate and accelerate the screen mesh getting gunked up.

Not mentioned if paper was used to start the fire - which can clog the screen mesh. Worst case is an unknown chimney fire and a creosote plug in the pipe.

Also not mentioned was there a carbon monoxide alarm along with a smoke detector alarm?

 

[fire_man]

I'm sure hoping we hear back from Gina. This was one of the more interesting smoke problems and I think alot could be learned from whatever fixed the problem.

 

[fibels]

I'm sure hoping we hear back from Gina. This was one of the more interesting smoke problems and I think alot could be learned from whatever fixed the problem.

Amen.

 

[edthesweep]

The flashlight is from Perkins. The flashcorder. No live feed but high quality video and a nice holder for it that keeps it central in the flue.

I should offer caps it seems like a good majority of masonry chimneys are just a clay tile protruding from the crown a few inches.

Thanks for the info!

Wheres Gina?