VC Encore (non Cat) --Question about pipe size and screen

[adklin01]

We had a VC Encore non cat installed yesterday. They put on a 6 inch collar and pipe at about a 45 degree angle (or slightly more) up to our vertical 8" pipe. Last night in reading the manual (and reading here), I saw that the use of a screen requires 8" pipe. Since we have a short run of 6" and then 8" I'm not sure if we are ok or not? I also don't know why they decided to do the 6" (and did not know before last night that it mattered). So, first, are we ok? Second, if we are ok, should I ask them to come back and change it to the 8" collar and pipe throughout? Will the 8" give us any performance improvements?

So far, we love the stove and it appears that VC has improved on its gasket issue from last year, or we got lucky. Our stove is tight and the gaskets are properly in place.

One other thing--is there any practical use for the warming shelves or are they really just cosmetic? We did not order as we didn't think we'd have room but we do so are thinking about it.

Thanks in advance for your advice here--you guys are a great discovery!

Audrey

 

[elkimmeg]

warming shelf or shelves: My wife use them to dry out wet mittens and uses them as a bread warmer, so the dough can rise. In my home they are functional.

On your venting what probably happened is the installers did not have 8" connector pipe so they reduced it to 6"
VC makes an 8" oval to round adapter as well as other compaines to fit your flue collar If you have provisions for 8", it makes no sense to reduce it. Your stove will heat the same and function the same, except as an open fire place with the spark screen. The added 8" flue area, is required for that option. I might add the open fireplace option is not for heating as heat is lost up the chimney

 

[adklin01]

Thanks for the reply on the warming shelves. Do you have 1 or 2? We are debating on if 1 will look odd (we have a corner set up for our stove, brick hearth....

I just talked to the dealer. They installed the 6" due to clearance/code issues. My guess was this was the issue since the original order called for the 6" pipe. So, that said, I guess we can't switch out to 8". What I didn't ask though is if they could switch to the 8" collar and then go to 6" and back to our existing 8". Would that make any difference or just cosmetic? They seem to think that the screen will work since we are mostly dealing with 8" pipe except directly off the stove for less than a 4' run I'd say.

On the plus side, they did say that if it does not work "Of course we will take the screen back--no problem at all." They also had to order another griddle as ours came with a cosmetic blemish in it that was part of the cast --not a big deal but glad there was no issue on ordering another. A good dealer makes such a difference!

 

[elkimmeg]

If there was a clearance issue then why did they not use double wall connector pipe that only requires 6" clearance while single wall uses 18" Please post a picture of your setup. VC makes a 6" round flue collar option standard is the 8" oval What does your stove have?

On the plus side, they did say that if it does not work “Of course we will take the screen back--no problem at all

.

I don't get this. Are they telling to use the stove open fire place option, for what is explicidly described in your manual not test to?
Have they read the manual? I'm getting a feeling they as BS-ing you about the venting setup. Or is it that they do not know the spects of the product they sell? Worse they don't care, the sale is the most inportant issue?, then BS the customer to death?

 

[adklin01]

I'll take a picture tonight. We had an old stove there with a somewhat nutty 8" setup (a couple of turns in the pipe from the ceiling to the stove). The former owner of the house did it himself (I think). This is in the (finished) basement, goes up through the next floor (in a box) and out the chimney (frame/box). I've lived there for 13 years using the stove and have never had a problem but the old setup was apparently not fully to code. The new setup required the heat shield on the back of the stove and then the 6" oval collar out of the stove (not the standard 8"), new 6" metal pipe on a vertical run up to the existing 8". The installer came out before we ordered it to see the situation, measured, and determined that we did not have sufficient clearance for the 8" coming off the stove (in part because we are a frame house and they did double layer of brick in the immediate area of the stove--half way up the wall--but then only a single layer the rest of the way to the ceiling -is this what you mean when you refer to the double wall only needing 6" of clearance?). So, the pipe apparently had to be smaller to maintain distance from the wall --the 18" you refer to, I believe. Remember, this is Kentucky, not the most forward thinking state on the planet!

Should I call VC to inquire about the issue? The dealer maintains (and from other posts I've read) that the issue is whether or not we will have sufficient draft to maintain the fire/not get smoke and they seem to think we will since we are primarily on 8". The other alternative, which I posed, was to get the 8" collar out of the stove, go to a 6" off that, and back to the 8, but they (and I ) think it would look kind of odd.

Do you think we are getting BS'd? If so, any advice on what I specifically need/should ask (nicely tell) them? This seller is a family business that has been here for 30+ years and has a good reputation.

 

[adklin01]

I called VC. He said it is (no surprise) a liability issue for them so they have to say do not use a screen with a 6" pipe though our set up might have enough draw. He also told me to check into connector heat shields for the back of the 8" pipe and just do that (if that would work). Any thoughts on that route and then being all 8"? VC also recommended getting NFPA 211 at the library to look at all of the info on codes, reducing clearances, etc.

 

[elkimmeg]

The stove was ordered with the 6" flue collar, that reduction is approved. What the retailer should have done is told you the limitations up front and not sold you the screen. Sounds like you are much better off than before. What did your inspector say?
since you have read the manual language exist about permitting and code compliance Right?

Return the screen and possibly use the credit towards a warming shelf if you feel the need. Get a permit and inspection Like VC told you ,in not so many words, code compliance. I have an Encore here with the 6" flue collar. IT works great. When you learn the opperation routine these are fantastic stoves. Good luck once more info was disclosed I think your setup is ok and I taske back any over reaction or miss interpetation

 

[adklin01]

Thanks for all of your help --I really appreciate it. I think I am going to ask them just so all bases are covered if we could go with the 8" with connector heat shields (if it would not look like crap) or double wall connectors. It might be that we don't have ample clearance at all points to do that. Then at least we know. As for them not telling me up front--probably a miscommunication as the install guy didn't know at the time he came out to see what was possible, most likely, that we wanted the screen (though the person in the store discussed the screen with me). Not the end of the world--it sounds like the screen will probably work with our set up so we'll give it a shot. We won't be doing this much anyway but would like the option. Quite frankly, I like the looks of the fire through the glass but my husband likes the screen option. Since he will pout if the screen won't work, I am hoping it does!

Do you have any suggestions from your experience with the encore in terms of damper/intake settings for not having the glass get dirty and having a good fire? We are using this to supplement our heat pump -- will see how it goes for longer burns overnight and during the day though we are not home during the day.

We did order the warming shelves--if nothing else, it'll be handy for moving a steamer there when we are adding wood. And drying mittens, of course!
I'm pretty tickled with the stove--I grew up in MA and VT and have wanted one of these stoves probably since I was 18 or so (a long time ago!). I know VC isn't the same as it used to be but from what we had (total crap), this is a 100%+ step up.

 

[elkimmeg]

I know VC isn’t the same as it used to be but from what we had (total crap), this is a 100%

I guess I should get rid of my stoves because they are total crap 1988 Intrepid II and 1999 Encore.
I hate when some make gereralizations without one shread of evidence Hear say
Let me give you true facts More VC products stoves are in American homes than any other stove
The crap you are talking about are American Workers Right in Bethel VT 360 strong manufacturing in USA
Is it Crap that is is not imported from IndoChina Is that the message you are spouting.

This crap comnpany is the only company that has vollenteered stoves to less fortunate people. You think they were only made well this year? They make 50,000 every year and all are not crap.

I know the workers in VT are thanking you for the purchase. Sorry to vent but I hate undocumented un supported oppinions
worse one's that are passed on. My stoves opperate superbly thank you

 

[adklin01]

Whoa, slow down there partner--you totally misread what I said. I was not referring to VC---I was referring to the wood stove WE had in our house, which was like something you would buy at Home Depot --IT was the crap I was referring to--not VC. What I have heard is VC these days is not what it used to be, though think it is still 100% better than what we just got rid of, which was not VC or any other name brand of stove. My only regret is that I didn't get a VC stove years ago! Having lived in VT for a period of time and working there, I'm a long-time fan of their stuff.

On other fronts, I did call the stove company back and the 6" pipe was the only option due to clearance--the double wall or connector heat shields still would not have had enough clearance. We also found out last night by chance that one of our neighbors (that we really respect) is actually cousins with the folks that own the company we bought the stove from, which is another good data point on their integrity. So, we at least feel better that they did what was the safest thing given our setup without us doing any interior remodeling.

 

[skypager]

The clearance issue here doesn't seem to make sense. This is what I came up with:

From the Encore Manual base on clearance with the 8" Double Wall Connector.

The corner of the stove must be 19" from the wall and the Double wall connector must be 9" from the wall. But, because of the corner clearance the center of the oval outlet will end up being 25" from the wall placing the outside of the double wall connector approximately 21" from the wall.

Single wall pipe has a clearance of 18" and Double wall pipe has a clearance of 6".

Now, if it is a straight shot up 8" single wall pipe would be a tight to or 18" clearance, if not a little over If there is an offset of 2" toward the wall of 1" or 2" I could see where 6" single wall pipe would fit but not 8" single wall pipe. However, why wouldn't 8" double wall pipe work? It may be taking you 1" or 2" closer to the wall but the clearance of the pipe to the wall would be reduced by 12".

What am I missing? Maybe a picture of the installation would help.

 

[skypager]

Ooh, one other thing...

I believe what Elk is trying to tell you in some of his posts is that even though the stove may draft ok, as its set up, with the doors open it is not approved to be used that way. The installation and operation instructions are approved by UL (or Warnock Hershey) and represent how the stove was tested and found to burn safely.

In a really bad scenario - If something was to happen and there was a fire, upon inspection, an insurance company could look at the screen and the 6" pipe and determine that the stove was not being used in the proper manner and deem the fire due to operator neglect. I don't want to seem like I'm trying to scare you or be over dramatic about this, but this is the world we live in.

 

[adklin01]

Josh, I understand on the liability issue--and also that is probably a large part of the change in code that changed the clearances between when our initial stove was done and now. Indeed it is the world we live in. I know Elk is trying to help--he totally misread my last post yesterday though so just hope he gets on here to see that I was not talking about VC stoves at all....or making any generalizations--I was talking about my crap, not anyone else's!

I really am not sure on the measurements to be honest--I'll take a picture or two and post it. Unless they are totally BSing me (which I really do not think is the case), they say that there was not enough clearance --I was there when they came out and measured and know that the installers, too, have to worry about liability.

Anyway, where the 6 inch meets the 8" pipe on the setup, the 8" does not have much clearance at that point--it is quite close to the wall (and then goes vertically up through the ceiling). The 6" comes out of the stove diagonally back to meet the 8". We have room for the warming racks on each side of the stove, but that will put us pretty close to the walls (just to give you an idea that we aren't dealing with huge space in the setup). I'll take some pics....Thanks again for your help/guidance. If with everyone's help here you think there is truly another option, I'll have them come redo it.

 

[adklin01]

Update--I have been busy so have not taken pics of our setup but now that we've had the stove in use, wanted to let Elk and others know that this stove is AWESOME. We absolutely love it. We can see already that it is easily twice as efficient (likely more) than our old no-name stove in terms of wood consumption and the heating capability is far superior. Our stove is in our (finished) basement and our upstairs thermostat was registering 75 on Saturday evening. We had a small fire last night after work and upstairs got to 73 (it was in the 40s here yesterday and cloudy so not much natural heating) and the stove was still hot this morning. I'm not sure why there are some negative posts about VC these days but we are very satisfied so far with the performance of ours. We have also found that starting the fire is significantly easier than in our old stove.

 

[BrotherBart]

Update--I have been busy so have not taken pics of our setup but now that we've had the stove in use, wanted to let Elk and others know that this stove is AWESOME. We absolutely love it. We can see already that it is easily twice as efficient (likely more) than our old no-name stove in terms of wood consumption and the heating capability is far superior. Our stove is in our (finished) basement and our upstairs thermostat was registering 75 on Saturday evening. We had a small fire last night after work and upstairs got to 73 (it was in the 40s here yesterday and cloudy so not much natural heating) and the stove was still hot this morning. I'm not sure why there are some negative posts about VC these days but we are very satisfied so far with the performance of ours. We have also found that starting the fire is significantly easier than in our old stove.

Congrats on success with the new stove. As to the hammering of VC, once a company steps in it one time it takes a long time for the effect to wear off. One thing I notice is that the bad mouthing of VC stoves does not seem to come from owners of VC stoves. Seems to be a lot of "I heard" in the conversation.

"I object your honor. Hearsay."

"Objection sustained."