Vermont Casting damage control

[kevin fitzsimmons]

With all the drubbing that the VC NCs have been given in the last little while, you would think that VC would step in and try to do a little damage control. Has anyone heard anything at all from VC regarding the everburn system and the long list of unhappy customers?

 

[swestall]

Its my understanding they don't think they have a problem.
They have sold xxxxxx stoves and only a few complaints. And, warranty cost is down (no expensive CATs to replace).
I suspect most of them own some other type of stove or don't burn wood, or they would know better.

Its like the Romans saying they were going to be in power forever........

 

[Diabel]

Didn't Elk post an email somwhere here from VC rep?

 

[webbie]

Only posts were that it was OK for the flue collar to glow red and that they were having no problems with the units.

Since problems like this are related to chimney, wood and operator...and in the realm of "customer satisfaction" (not a defect), I don't expect them to address it - other than perhaps making modifications in future productions to improve the friendliness. Every company has unhappy customers.....it come down the actual percentage in the end.

 

[BurningIsLove]

There have been numerous threads about the difficulties w/ everburn. Heck, I was one of the original critics. Do a search using some keywords like everburn and VC and you'll find them.

But after spending a lot more time w/ mine, it's not as much a design 'defect' that cannot be overcome. Yes, it takes at minimum double the effort, care, and attention to detail that a VC-cat stove like the encore. It's far more temperamental, harder to make secondary combustion occur, more sensitive to draft & atmospheric conditions, etc. It is definitely not an entry level stove, nor one that you can expect to have working efficiently and consistently until your second season.

But, once you come to terms and become acquainted with it, it becomes MUCH easier and less effort, and the burn times are very long (10+ hours). Last year I couldn;t achieve secondary combustion unless it was below 25 degrees outside, only likely below 15 or lower. But its 37 degrees outside now and it's rumbling away in an efficient burn w/ a mix of green & seasoned wood.

It is without question designed (or at least advised) for an experienced, 24x7 burner who is using it for primary heat of a large space.

All the above being said, VC has been less involved with the issue than I would like.

 

[BurningIsLove]

Only posts were that it was OK for the flue collar to glow red and that they were having no problems with the units.

Just as a user's edit, the collar does NOT have to glow red for it to work. My flu gas reads 1200 when Im readying it for secondary, even sometimes as hot as 1400 when I've used too much seasoned wood & the draft is (too) optimal. My flu collar (or single walled pipe) has never glowed red that I've seen, and trust me when the temps are that high, I keep a VERY close eye on it.

 

[webbie]

I was referring to a post which quoted the VC factory or rep saying it was OK for the collar to glow - just for clarity.

 

[Diabel]

I just called my dealer & he also claims glowing red is OK!

 

[BurningIsLove]

is your flu collar vertical or horizontal? Wondering if that has anything to do w/ it.

 

[kevin fitzsimmons]

1400 and glowing red is too hot for my liking. about 600 too hot. I agree that the vc nc is not a stove to cut your wood burning teeth on, but i also can't baby sit a stove for two hours to get it into secondary burn (and even then it rarely kicked off). Have you checked your inner top. mine cracked and was letting gas out the bypass, making evebrurn even harder to operate successfully. I guess if we have gone this far without Vc even trying to help ( as englander stove works seems more than willing to do on this forum) then i wouldn't expect them along any time soon. Live and learn i guess

 

[Diabel]

vertical

 

[BurningIsLove]

mine is horizontal, but tradergordo has a vertical setup, and he posted some good advice, pics, even a video of his setup which is pretty sweet. Might want to read some of his posts. But I dont think he runs his glowing, either. He actually thought my 1200-1400 was too hot.

 

[Diabel]

Yeah, I have read his posts, but for some reason I could not open the video

 

[BurningIsLove]

Yeah, I think he has a broken link. Send him a PM and Im sure he'll fix it for ya. If not, I have a copy of it locally and can post it for ya if you want. Since you already have successful 2ndary combustions, you probably wont learn anything new from it except to see how he does it. Like me, he had a tough time in the beginning

 

[swestall]

But after spending a lot more time w/ mine, it’s not as much a design ‘defect’ that cannot be overcome. Yes, it takes at minimum double the effort, care, and attention to detail that a VC-cat stove like the encore. It’s far more temperamental, harder to make secondary combustion occur, more sensitive to draft & atmospheric conditions, etc. It is definitely not an entry level stove, nor one that you can expect to have working efficiently and consistently until your second season.

But, once you come to terms and become acquainted with it, it becomes MUCH easier and less effort, and the burn times are very long (10+ hours). Last year I couldn;t achieve secondary combustion unless it was below 25 degrees outside, only likely below 15 or lower. But its 37 degrees outside now and it’s rumbling away in an efficient burn w/ a mix of green & seasoned wood.

I'm a 40 year experienced woodburner. Stand back from these comments and read them. The essence is that if you want to go through the time and trouble to struggle along with the Everburn, you can heat with it.
Next time I am on a deserted Island and there is not other stove I'll be happy to use the VC Everburn. Until then, my recommendation is for a stove that provides good heat, a pleasant experience and leaves time in your life for other things.
I got the stupid thing to work, and that's when I took it out and replaced it with something that actually worked without me getting it to.
My feeling is that VC has blown it. And, I'm also sorry I keep saying that, I guess I'm still p'd off.....

I don't know where,but I did read a post somewhere where VC said that they have a small percenatage of complaints so as far as they are concerened its not a problem...I don't believe that for a moment..

 

[Cath]

This reminds me somewhat of the Toyota / Lexus oil sludge issue going back 4 or 5 years or so ago. Toyota/Lexus initially took the same position that as a percentage the scope of the problem was relatively small but they ultimately extended the warranty on this particular issue because there was such an uproar. Can you imagine paying a premium for a Lexus and then having to turn around within a year or so and pay for a new engine?
~Cath

 

[BurningIsLove]

I agree in part.....I'm still not terribly thrilled with the fact that I paid a premium for something that's more difficult to use than something cheaper (initially) and/or more difficult than what I'm accustomed to (this is my first non-cat stove). It does seem a bit of a backwards step in terms of stove design especially if you're accustomed to the ease of use of a catalytic.

That said, to expand on my poor command of analogies, it's like if you learned to drive on an automatic. Then years later you buy a sports car w/ manual transmission. Because you've never driven a stick before, the whole driving experience seems wrong because you keep popping the clutch and stalling it. You don't immediately go to the dealer complaining that the car doesnt drive well. Over time you'll learn to drive a manual and the car will be fun to drive. This isnt necessarily an 'engine replacement' or something that you've wrecked.

That said, you DO go to the dealership if the clutch design is so bad that experienced manual transmission drivers are having troubles with it. I think the downdraft design (aka everburn and non-cats in general) is somewhere in between. I takes a while to learn, longer than what a lot of people are willing to (or accustomed to) put into it. But once you do, it will work w/ some consistency. Extending on the above car analogy, if you drive the same car w/ the same mileage on the same surface w/ the same gasoline in the same weather, it should perform reasonably consistent each time.

The VC design is a whole lot less consistent than I would expect for a well designed stove, but with more practice it does get better. Also keep in mind that a non-cat doesnt have a catalytic (duh). which have to be replaced every few years due to one reason or another. And they arent cheap. So lower maintenance cost=higher maintenance in operation. No catalytic means you have a much smaller operational temperature window for success.

Aint nothing free in life, except that magical free cord of wood everyone comes across at least once in life.

 

[begreen]

I think that one of the complaints we are also seeing with the VC everburns is the fragility of the refractory package. This appears to have added significant cost to the maintenance on these stoves, more than a replacement catalyst.

 

[BurningIsLove]

Good point, BeGreen. I must admit that while mine is running cleanly & consistently aside from the occassional, unexplainable flop, I am not very hopeful that my refractory will be in good shape when I take off the shoe for inspection (not until springtime though I hope)

 

[Diabel]

How difficult is the shoe/refactory removal? And how often should it be cleaned? I am itching to see the refactory removed & at the same time I will remove my friends cat assembly & see if they can be swapped (both encore stoves 1451 & 2550) firebox looks identical. Summer project!

 

[jtp10181]

In my experience locally most of our customers are either new to wood burning totally, or new to wood burning in an EPA unit. A lot of them can't even get the Quad units to work correctly which from what people talk about on here sound like one of the easiest to operate. Most of them don't even know they are not doing it right until they have problems and talk to me. I think if we sold that "everburn" unit we would not get many complaints either. People would just burn wood in it, they don't know whats going on, or that its not performing correctly.

 

[downeast]

In my experience locally most of our customers are either new to wood burning totally, or new to wood burning in an EPA unit. A lot of them can't even get the Quad units to work correctly which from what people talk about on here sound like one of the easiest to operate. Most of them don't even know they are not doing it right until they have problems and talk to me. I think if we sold that "everburn" unit we would not get many complaints either. People would just burn wood in it, they don't know whats going on, or that its not performing correctly.

It's the old cry " blame the customer" syndrome. Not a bright marketing strategy for short or long term. That arrogance is plain stupid, uninformed. Look at GM, Ford, Chrysler. Kind of like our ordinance instructors telling us just to wire the Semtex....."it's easy" %-P " No one else got themselves blown up." So, how many of you actually tried to burn an Everburn for heat ? Step into the reality of the user, then post.

There's no such thing as "easy" for a product. It is the manufacturer's and the seller's job--if the company wants to make it in the marketplace --to show, to explain, to service; or, don't sell the product. This is like hearing the bleat of the programmer or software engineer whine how simple it is for him to run the routine. "Why, I have no problem." Those were the techs we fired.

Those you disdain who can't do it "correctly", or buy the "easiest to operate" appliance are those who pay your way. Period.
The most difficult job in software for example is beta: writing software that is near bomb and bug proof. It is why professionals in any field use focus groups and beta testing over and over and over before shipping product. More importatnt: write a manual in clear, untechnical, understandable language. Customer service calls and fixes are damn expensive.

Yes, the customer has an obligation to learn and adjust. But most work hard to earn the 2K + for a stove. Don't expect anyone to climb a steep learning curve simply to get their money's worth. They'll go somewhere else....most do. Would anyone expect that from a car, a washing machine, a frig ? Like the Big Three, when you miss the boat on your marketplace, getting back to speed is mission impossible.

So who do you work for....really ? Experience with a variety of wood stoves and HVAC ?

 

[dtabor]

Sorry but I would have to agree with jtp10181. I dont know about people using the other brands, but the statement about less complaints on the Everburn because people just buy it and put wood in it and burn is pretty valid. As I said in a past post, I talked to my dealer and since have talked to others who all say they've sold alot of the Everburns and no one has come back to them complaining. The reason we see the complaints here is that the people here are knowlegable and know when something is or is not working correctly. I would have to say a great share of wood stove users have the view as it is a big black metal box that you put wood in, heat up the metal and it radiates heat. I certainly didnt know about all the EPA stuff, that there should be NO smoke?? that was a real new one, how can you burn wood with NO smoke! I have yet to drive by a house here in VT on my way to work, where many people burn wood, and see NO smoke coming from ANY wood stove chimney. If I would have never found this place, I would never have known ANY of this stuff and would have just dumped my wood in flipped the lever at 400* like the manual says and thought it was working just fine, smoke from the chimney and all.

 

[Diabel]

I was one of those people last year. Had the chimney swept twice!

 

[swestall]

You know everyone here has a valid point.

The difference is some are defending living with a problem, some are saying how dare they put out a product with such a problem, others are saying the marketplace will adjust and they will be out, and so on.

There is no person arguing that it is not a problem (very complicated), except for the CFM and Dealer folks who have to pay money or lose sales if it is a problem.

So here's my take: If you want to think you are a seasoned wood burner and you can live with this thing, go right ahead. But be counseled that you are not experiencing all that wood burning has to offer. Indeed there are EPA stoves out there that are far advanced and easier to use compared to the VC Everburn design. (I'm speaking as a person who has heated with wood for 40 seasons)

I've concluded that CFM is a big company that is really going to do what is in its best interest and that its employees seem not to be motivated by creating a happy user, they want to create happy management above them or more profit: neither of these involves taking a hit on a bad design.

Toyota was wise to step up to the engine sludge issue. CFM is not so wise, at this time, and is not stepping up which will eventually put them with Studebaker, Edsel, Rambler, et al.

I respect each person who is living with the Everburn because they are tough enough to stick it out, or they can't afford to change it out or whatever.

Personally, in our home we are now experiencing a relatively easy to use, clean burning, low wood consumption/high heat output device.

And I thank GOD that my wife was smart enough (more than me I was toughing it out) to take me aside and tell me I was being stupid trying to stick it out with something that did nothing but give me a hard time and make me miserable.

Good luck to CFM and all their products. As for those of you here who choose to live with it, I hope you don't experience any bad.

My engineering analysis says that it will work for those who are somewhat close to the design point for draft, etc. That's the key because that stove isn't going to change any time soon.