vermont castings .kinda sad
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kennyp2339
Minister of Fire
The gist: epa clean burn regulations of the late 80's then 90's. The stoves are beautiful, but beauty comes with cost, like cast molds and imports, its hard to re-tool or make new molds based on burn tech for small / medium companies, so they opted to keep the old time & true design and just reshape the guts of the stove to meet clean burn regs, eventually the original company was bought and sold a few times, all new buyers have tried to keep the stove aesthetic vibe, the damage was done and in 2019 VC was bought by another larger company, this company has turned up the notches with new stoves for 2020, some aesthetics original to the company, but between harder to achieve 2020 regs and the black eye damage of the last 25-30 years with failed down draft systems, a deep hole was made and its hard to climb out of it.
I'm def not saying clean burn is bad, it just didnt work out for this company's business model
I'm def not saying clean burn is bad, it just didnt work out for this company's business model
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
They have had several good designs through the years. But they insist on sticking with the top load downdraft design that has been problematic for everyone who tried it
kennyp2339
Minister of Fire
Those were different holding companies under the VC brand name, that’s the deep hole I was referring to, going to take awhile to climb out and rebrand themselves
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
But judging by the number of new owners in the forum they are still making sales. It has good brand recognition for may approaching 50 and up. 40 and under we just see a pretty stove.
Im going to rant a bit here VC gamed the system like any company does to get to a certain arbitrary number. It would be very hard to achieve what they say is possible IMO.
Many will say ah, you just need the cat to get those numbers.
Welllll....?
From the VC dauntless book and filled under EPA reports 240-19 (without catalyst) 246-19 (catalytic)
EPA Certified Emissions: 1.1 g/hr (without catalyst) 1.2 g/hr (catalytic)
Well how could that be?
Well the cat helps you control it better at least.
Welllll,... if by control you mean your ability to have a larger difference in low BTU potential and high BTU potential (which you want to see in any stove),
12,250 - 49,430 (without catalyst) 14,520 - 41,940 (catalytic)
Wait....so WITHOUT the cat...you can go lower AND higher?
Well how could that be?
Two balls of stainless brillo pad shoved into the cat cavity has the same effect as having a cat in for controllability. Not that you want to ride with 2 brillo balls in your cat cavity unless you like voiding your warranty.
SO what is the REAL world experience with a VC stove. Many people like me will find that there is a very fine teetering area you want to be on the air control based on a number of factors and experiences. This is not an appliance. There is no on/off switch. There is way too low, way too low, way too low, way too low, too low, too low, .....ok nice....,too high, too high, way too high, OMG WHATS HAPPENING HIGH.
Marketing people are geniuses in coming up with ways that dont exactly indemnify themselves, but do create an argument FOR the company. Here's a great example. VC knows their stoves are challenging to operate, and that their entire business is surrounded by the top hatch door. I was sucked into it. I could put a cage around my stove for kids/pets and still be able to load it quickly. As if you can just toss a log or two into a VC stove and go about your business. That's laughable.
From the VC owners manual:
Conclusion: Wood-burning is an art rather than a science. Once the stove and chimney system are in place, you can only vary your technique, mostly your timing, to achieve good results.If you keep track of your burning habits and relate them to their effects on the stove’s operation, you’ll be rewarded with good performance and years of reliable heating.
So, what should we garner from that? 1. you will be constantly babysitting your stove until you figure out some very unforgiving parameters that you must abide by, and even a slight variation sends you into the TOO category (TOO low or TOO high). 2. If you do not track your burning habits YOU WILL BE PUNISHED! Fear the wrath of not abiding by the art!
But wait a minute you say, let's unpack that 'conclusion' by VC a bit more shall we?
Wood burning is an art rather than a science. Not, wood burning is more of an art than it is a science, but it is an art - and not a science. Wow. At first read you think that is a rather benign statement. But think about that, they are basically saying - there is no right or wrong way to run the stove after all, it's art and subjective to the viewer of what is right or wrong.. Well that's telling.
Or how about, the fact that they say It's an art, not a science BUT then go on immediately afterwards to suggest you should track your burning habits and relate them to the effects on the stove's operation. Um, forgive me if I'm wrong but isnt that called "cause and effect" <----- the very foundation of science and engineering (next to math which is the nucleus of everything).
So which is it VC, Science? Art? Mana? A new type of divining rod? A portal to hell maybe?
yet, in the end - once I have my stove cruising, I feel a sense of satisfaction. Like getting a bolt unstuck that you've been working on for 2 days, or looking down at the scale and noticing progress after 2 painful weeks of cutting out everything that is bad for you but tastes so great.
There are plenty of people who love them. Untill they get a different stoves and see how easy it should be to run a stove
Hey I have had a fair number of Pontiacs lol. I broke them all but that was entirely my fault
My VC Encore seems to work with very minimal issues. I have also never burned another stove than this one, so my burning habits are limited to how this burns. The stove does indeed look fantastic in my space, and for us, that was a huge factor in what stove we purchased. Do I think there are easier stoves to run, absolutely. Would I be as happy with the aesthetics, absolutely not.
I was actually in a dealer yesterday to pick up fire starters that I had never been in before. Asked them if people complain about the VC stoves they told me no, they are their best selling stove and they get far fewer complaints versus other brands. Personally I find this hard to believe, but there are certainly a good deal of people using these stoves with a great deal of success
I was actually in a dealer yesterday to pick up fire starters that I had never been in before. Asked them if people complain about the VC stoves they told me no, they are their best selling stove and they get far fewer complaints versus other brands. Personally I find this hard to believe, but there are certainly a good deal of people using these stoves with a great deal of success
As someone who works on hundreds of stoves a year of many different brands. Yes there are many happy VC owners. And yes I make a whole lot of money working on VC stoves replacing parts over and over. So for me they are actually good. But from what I see in the chimneys many of those happy customers absolutely are not getting their stoves to work properly
Oh I bet.
Question, if cat temps are in the "active range", 800+ safe to assume the stove is burning clean? Or the only way to really know to look in the pipe and see what's there?
Question, if cat temps are in the "active range", 800+ safe to assume the stove is burning clean? Or the only way to really know to look in the pipe and see what's there?
If the exhaust temps are staying above the condensation point all the way out the chimney yes. If not you will still have buildup in the chimney
Look back at past threads. It's a story often told.
Unfortunately, Vermont Castings has gone through a series of owners. Some were undercapitalized, and one, a teacher's union, didn't know diddly about stove manufacturing or running a foundry. The quality and dealer support suffered during this period. After a short run at employee ownership, HHT bought the company in 2013. They finally have the financial backing and industry knowledge needed to survive and improve on their legacy design, but the internals need improving. They had a short run with a conventionally designed secondary combustion system (the Madison) that retained the classic VC look. It was a nice stove, too bad they didn't continue in that direction.
Here is a dealer's perspective:
Vermont Castings
Vermont Castings is probably the single most well know American Stove Brand - started in the 1970's in a small town in VT, they built one of the most modern stove foundries in the world. The entire Vermont Castings story is very interesting...
www.hearth.com
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Maybe we should all be putting probes a few inches below the top of our chimney tops? I wonder what temp we should be striving for?
That would be a curious experiment. Run the stove a few days, let it go out - monitor the chimney temps via a graph, then inspect the chimney and stove pipe.
Temps inside the stove pipe dont amount to much of anything if it routes outside then runs up 15'. I would think a better method would be chimney top temps. Has anyone done this?
Imo that would be the correct way. I have 7' of chimney sticking out of the roof. Not ideal, I'm sure. Especially when it's -40 with a wind. My probe 18" above the stove has no idea what's happening up there... I just observe the chimney top regularly and just hate when I can smell smoke outside, which is rare but happens from time to time.
those VC stoves sure are pretty, beautiful, in fact, it's a shame that they are finicky. For now, I'll stick with plate steel until I know what I am doing..
those VC stoves sure are pretty, beautiful, in fact, it's a shame that they are finicky. For now, I'll stick with plate steel until I know what I am doing..
Hogwildz
Minister of Fire
Just coming across this thread today. I have no experience with vermont castings, I am very familiar with its cousin the Harman TL.
I'm am so glad that stove is behind me. I bought a f55 witch was the other stove I was considering at the time. Never go back. I do miss the occasional grilling tho!
I'm am so glad that stove is behind me. I bought a f55 witch was the other stove I was considering at the time. Never go back. I do miss the occasional grilling tho!
Yeah I was considering that on as well. I think the f55 had the bigger fire box tho. I have to say that the grilling feature is what sold me on the Harman along with the the dealer being the closest to me.
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