I was confused before and now I'm completely lost. I have been trying to increase my burn times with no success. An account of last night and this mornings fires goes as follows: Went out to dinner and before we left I l added 2 splits just to have coals when we returned. Came home at 9.00 and loaded up with as much as I could fit in the box. The coals were high and hot and I had no problem getting things started. Within a half hour I had the air turned down and secondaries burning with good heat. By 1130 I had coals and by 1230 I had lost a lot of heat and it was time to reload. Thats 3-31/2 hours on a full load of wood. Not what I expected. Loaded up 4 large splits and went to bed. I got to the fire around 830 this morning, had some glowing embers but too much ash so I shoveled out some, leaving about an inch or so. I parted the ash down the middle added a firestarter and some paper and loaded up some small splits. Just about 5 of them , maybe wieghing around 10 - 12 pounds. ( I started weighing the loads this morning). The fire this morning is ready for a reload now. I got the same time out of the small 10-12 pound load this morning as I did the monster load last night. I am stumped. Can someone shed some light on what the reason may be for this. I figured more wood would equal longer burn but I can't seem to get that logic to work. Maybe the amount of ash in the box? Not fully seasoned wood? Would that even matter? It's all coming from the same HH at this point.
Very confused.... a little help please
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Sounds like you've got air leaks somewhere. Check all your gaskets on the door, glass, and ash pan door if it has one. Use the Dollar Bill Test™
Edit: Keep in mind, "burn time" is a very relative term. Hearthstone's website says up to 10 hour burn time. This means that on a full load of Oak, from the time you strike the match to when the last ember has burned out, could theoretically be 10 hours with perfect draft and intake conditions, and all seals at 100% of their effectiveness.
Edit: Keep in mind, "burn time" is a very relative term. Hearthstone's website says up to 10 hour burn time. This means that on a full load of Oak, from the time you strike the match to when the last ember has burned out, could theoretically be 10 hours with perfect draft and intake conditions, and all seals at 100% of their effectiveness.
Chimney draft being dependent on outside temperature. If it was cold out last night, the draft would be stronger. Warmer out this morning, draft = weaker, thus longer burn. If the temperature last night and this morning is the same, then I don't know. Do you burn the stove with the primary air closed all the way ?
I try to close down the air all the way all the time. It was cold last night and much warmer this morning. That would explain why I needed to keep the air open a little this morning. I always turn to the air leak possibility also but it's not in or around the door. I just did the seal again the other day and did a dollar bill test this morning. Last night during the fire, when I had my secondaries going and the fire going really good, I turned off the blower and lit a candle and ran it around the door at the seal and also at the glass to metal edge on the door itself. I didn't see an signs of the flame being sucked in. I started with the insert last Feb. and was convinced by the end of the burning season that I had an overdraft problem. It's either that or I overfired so bad that I ruined the seals. The problem with that idea is the fact that the fire burned great this morning but not last night. Could something be happening to the unit as it gets hot? I hadn't thought about it but maybe the first fire in the morning lasts longer or maybe it's just my mind over thinking at this point. I'll make a note of tomorrows first fire. I would think things would tighten up with the higher temps after a fire but maybe I'm wrong. I guess maybe the candle or insense test around the whole unit while a fire is going is my next step. This insert has blower channels that run around the whole thing. Like a piece of sheet metal wrapped around it. I'm gonna have to compare the burn time with the blower on and off. maybe the blower could actually be forcing air into the box at a seal leak. It would be under the sheet metal wrap and not obvius with the insense test around the out side. I better stop typing or I might come up with more things to check...
I didn't factor the possibility of draft changes due to temp. That makes a lot of sense. if you're drafting way too hard when it's cold, a pipe damper might help a bit, or you could always go really extreme and see if you can find something on how to cut off secondary air slightly or primary air further than the stove really allows for.
It sounds to me from your description that the way you are loading the stove is you are spreading out a bed of red hot coals over the entire floor of the stove, putting a channel in it so air can reach the splits all the way at the back, and laying the splits in so that the entire bottom layer is resting on a hot coal bed. Yes?
This technique would allow almost every log in the firbox to burn simultaniously, with the entire bottom layer of wood having access to enough heat to kindle and enough air to burn once lit. It is a good way to load for a relatively short, very hot fire - which it sounds like you are getting.
Instead, burn your coals down significantly until you have enough for about a 3" high 3" wide band of red embers reaching E/W (sideways) across the stove. Rake this row of coals up to the very front of your firebox, right against your primary air source. Open your primary air all the way and if you are going to be standing right by the stove even leave your loading door open a crack to allow this row of coals to suck up some air and get good and hot. Lay your splits in east/west, with the largest splits or rounds at the back of the firebox resting on nothing but ash dust - no embers back there. Tuck everything in nice and neatly, with a smallish split (or even a piece or two of kindling depending on your ember bed heat) on top of your row of embers, then larger splits on top of that fully filling the firebox. Leave your primary open full until the flames are rolling and a good temp is reached (for me around 300*) and then shut down to about half, as you reach about 4/5 or so of desired cruising temp (for me around or just before 400* with the desired cruising temp being roughly 450* to 500*) with steady rolling flames and good secondary burn going, shut the air roughly 4/5 to 9/10 of the way closed. Once you get the hang of it, the splits in the front of your firebox will burn first, and the splits behind them will light only when the front rows have burned down good and low and the little bit of primary air you leave open washes over their coals and kindles the row behind. All loaded wood will char effectively as the rows in front burn as the secondary licks over them and you should see a nice clean burn for the entirety of your fire. You should be able to get good heat out of that stove for 8 hrs and after 10 you should be able to light off a new fire with your embers withough using any fire starters or paper. A good friend of mine heats with it and has little problem achieving these results (with good hardwood).
This technique would allow almost every log in the firbox to burn simultaniously, with the entire bottom layer of wood having access to enough heat to kindle and enough air to burn once lit. It is a good way to load for a relatively short, very hot fire - which it sounds like you are getting.
Instead, burn your coals down significantly until you have enough for about a 3" high 3" wide band of red embers reaching E/W (sideways) across the stove. Rake this row of coals up to the very front of your firebox, right against your primary air source. Open your primary air all the way and if you are going to be standing right by the stove even leave your loading door open a crack to allow this row of coals to suck up some air and get good and hot. Lay your splits in east/west, with the largest splits or rounds at the back of the firebox resting on nothing but ash dust - no embers back there. Tuck everything in nice and neatly, with a smallish split (or even a piece or two of kindling depending on your ember bed heat) on top of your row of embers, then larger splits on top of that fully filling the firebox. Leave your primary open full until the flames are rolling and a good temp is reached (for me around 300*) and then shut down to about half, as you reach about 4/5 or so of desired cruising temp (for me around or just before 400* with the desired cruising temp being roughly 450* to 500*) with steady rolling flames and good secondary burn going, shut the air roughly 4/5 to 9/10 of the way closed. Once you get the hang of it, the splits in the front of your firebox will burn first, and the splits behind them will light only when the front rows have burned down good and low and the little bit of primary air you leave open washes over their coals and kindles the row behind. All loaded wood will char effectively as the rows in front burn as the secondary licks over them and you should see a nice clean burn for the entirety of your fire. You should be able to get good heat out of that stove for 8 hrs and after 10 you should be able to light off a new fire with your embers withough using any fire starters or paper. A good friend of mine heats with it and has little problem achieving these results (with good hardwood).
Great post meathead. I do long burns that same way. Only difference is that I completely shut the intake supply as soon as I can do it without killing the fire.
Highbeam - good call. Should have mentioned that if you have good draft and a good secondary air feed, you might not need any primary to achieve the same results. All depends on the setup, experiement with it and make minor changes each time you are around to watch how the stove reacts and you will find the sweet spot.
I've been burning 24/7 since the install around Halloween but the Clydesdale (my mistress) is still
training me!
training me!
meathead said:
Don't mean to high jack this thread but I have a question in regards to what you have suggested.
I have tried this in my insert after reading about it here in the past. I end up with a smoking chimney.
I reload when temp. is still in the 300's as described. I have to leave the door open a crack on my insert. Once front log ignites and things heat up I begin to shut down but have never been successful in being able to shut the air down past 60% closed. I loose the flame and secondary burn too.
Seems like I have to leave the door open for quite awhile and that the rear logs have to ignite too or else I run into lower burn temps and smoke out of my chimney.
My manual suggests spreading the coals evenly along the entire bottom of the fire box which I have resorted to doing because it does keep things going tho' I do not get the long burn times you mention. More like 1 1/2 hours of active flame and then into coaling stage.
I do keep experimenting but had sort of resigned myself to the idea that my insert might not burn in the manner you, and others, have suggested.
So, how do you keep your chimney from smoking when you do your method and how hot are your stove top temps. doing what you do?
Thanks
Man that jotul 550 has an awfully big firebox to only be getting 1.5 hours of flame. Draft problems would be the first culprit that comes to mind, not enough air being pulled out of the fire and so not enough being pulled in to keep things rolling along- I'm sure you have already considered this but any chance it's an issue? Spent fuel air has to exit the firebox before fresh fuel air can enter.
As far as keeping the chimney from smoking, as I said I have found that the secondary licking down onto the entire load chars it effectively in about a 15 minute time span. Once charred you should see the burn clean up. Obviously finding the sweet spot and keeping the secondary chugging away for as long as possible is a key factor.
It seems to me like you should have secondary going for longer than you are even getting active flame! Of course I have no experience with your stove so that could well be the ignorance talking. Something isn't right.
As far as keeping the chimney from smoking, as I said I have found that the secondary licking down onto the entire load chars it effectively in about a 15 minute time span. Once charred you should see the burn clean up. Obviously finding the sweet spot and keeping the secondary chugging away for as long as possible is a key factor.
It seems to me like you should have secondary going for longer than you are even getting active flame! Of course I have no experience with your stove so that could well be the ignorance talking. Something isn't right.
I think Meathead and Highbeam summed it up perfectly, I'm going on 2 months here with my Clydesdale, no doubt on a steep learning curve and noticed what they speak of by accident over the past few days.. Just playing around with how I am loading, damping and burning and even taking notes as I live and learn this insert. I can confirm that if I load small splits alternately on an angle for each level to maybe 3 or 4 levels deep I get a fast hot fire that will go maybe 2 or 3 hours and I'm down to coals, no flame and have to reload. The insert will continue to push heat as the temp drops through 200 and lower, maybe another hour?? This is with the blower running about 50% so no doubt cooling the box down pretty quick.
The other day I loaded up all east west with bigger splits at the back bottom of the box and less space between the splits, really tried to pack them in there like a jig saw puzzle, much less space between them in the back bottom area. It took more time to get things going and I had to reload the front with several smaller splits about an hour in to keep things going real hot but overall I noticed a longer burn time, Maybe 4 to 4 1/2 hours before the flames died down to coal bed and the temp fell to 250deg or below.
So I got an extra hour to hours and a half by loading this way, Still not as long as I would like but I may be dealing with some door gasket leakage on this insert and maybe thats hurting me. I also think that the need for good seasoned hardwood is another factor in getting longer burn times. I have a bunch of red oak that's 3 years old and I planning on testing with it on future burns versus the mix of Oak, Locust, Ash and Maple seasoned for about a year that I have been using over the past month.
I view the 10 to 12 hours time noted in the manual as the holy grail or sorts.. Not sure I will ever get there,, but it sure is fun trying.. I would be happy if I could get ot 7 hours or so. That being from start to coal bed still pushing out good heat which it seems to do just fine at 200deg and above..
The other day I loaded up all east west with bigger splits at the back bottom of the box and less space between the splits, really tried to pack them in there like a jig saw puzzle, much less space between them in the back bottom area. It took more time to get things going and I had to reload the front with several smaller splits about an hour in to keep things going real hot but overall I noticed a longer burn time, Maybe 4 to 4 1/2 hours before the flames died down to coal bed and the temp fell to 250deg or below.
So I got an extra hour to hours and a half by loading this way, Still not as long as I would like but I may be dealing with some door gasket leakage on this insert and maybe thats hurting me. I also think that the need for good seasoned hardwood is another factor in getting longer burn times. I have a bunch of red oak that's 3 years old and I planning on testing with it on future burns versus the mix of Oak, Locust, Ash and Maple seasoned for about a year that I have been using over the past month.
I view the 10 to 12 hours time noted in the manual as the holy grail or sorts.. Not sure I will ever get there,, but it sure is fun trying.. I would be happy if I could get ot 7 hours or so. That being from start to coal bed still pushing out good heat which it seems to do just fine at 200deg and above..
I'm convinced "burn time" is either a very subjective term, or some people are lying through their teeth.
There's only so much BTU in a piece of particular wood. The manufactures I believe consider burn time as the time you light a match to the time the last coal is red, or perhaps some of the better ones to the time the bed of coals can re-light a new load of wood. I consider burn time as useful heat, or enough heat to heat my home. When the temp starts dropping to 67-68, I'm cold, I want heat. I re-load, I don't care where in the burn cycle it is.
I tend to burn for efficiency. Even 2 year seasoned white oak, if burned for efficiency, will only last a few hours at best. Sure, if I choke off the air it'll last for alot longer, but smolder and flame will be sputtery, or in other words, I'm getting cold. That's where the efficiency of your home comes in. If you need heat, you re-load. If your stove is oversized for your space, you can load it, forget it, and let the coals burn down for hours. If your stove isn't holding coals for 8 hours, then you have a gasket leak or draft issue I think. But if the equipment is up to holding coals for 8+ hours, then I think 10-14 hour "burn times" are just either fiction, or your home doesn't 'need' the heat (ie oversized, or some might say, properly sized). If your stove can heat your house to 80, you can let the coals burn for hours and your home will slowly cool to 68, then you get 7-8-10-14 hour burn times. If your stove is undersized, or not properly sized, or you have a giant house or a house with super tall ceilings, or a old drafty leaky home, those "burn times" are fiction.
Am I an expert, no, not by any means, but do the math. A piece of seasoned white oak only has so much BTU. If you want to smolder your stove, it'll last. 8 hours of secondary's and useful heat is another story entirely.
There's only so much BTU in a piece of particular wood. The manufactures I believe consider burn time as the time you light a match to the time the last coal is red, or perhaps some of the better ones to the time the bed of coals can re-light a new load of wood. I consider burn time as useful heat, or enough heat to heat my home. When the temp starts dropping to 67-68, I'm cold, I want heat. I re-load, I don't care where in the burn cycle it is.
I tend to burn for efficiency. Even 2 year seasoned white oak, if burned for efficiency, will only last a few hours at best. Sure, if I choke off the air it'll last for alot longer, but smolder and flame will be sputtery, or in other words, I'm getting cold. That's where the efficiency of your home comes in. If you need heat, you re-load. If your stove is oversized for your space, you can load it, forget it, and let the coals burn down for hours. If your stove isn't holding coals for 8 hours, then you have a gasket leak or draft issue I think. But if the equipment is up to holding coals for 8+ hours, then I think 10-14 hour "burn times" are just either fiction, or your home doesn't 'need' the heat (ie oversized, or some might say, properly sized). If your stove can heat your house to 80, you can let the coals burn for hours and your home will slowly cool to 68, then you get 7-8-10-14 hour burn times. If your stove is undersized, or not properly sized, or you have a giant house or a house with super tall ceilings, or a old drafty leaky home, those "burn times" are fiction.
Am I an expert, no, not by any means, but do the math. A piece of seasoned white oak only has so much BTU. If you want to smolder your stove, it'll last. 8 hours of secondary's and useful heat is another story entirely.
meathead said:
No draft problems. Had new liner and additional extend-a-flue added last winter when insert was installed. No obstructions. In fact the draft could be eating up the wood...
I am still experimenting. Have been afraid to really load the fire box because it gets so hot 650-700* with just 3 medium splits.
Splits I use are of varying size. I get wood delivered so have little control with the size. I like the variety because it gives me more options. Our temps. have been very mild most of the winter so I have kept the oak out of the mix. It is supposed to get below 30* tomorrow, we shall see..., so I will play around with how I load again and see what happens.
This insert is still new to me and I am still learning from my mistakes. Very trial and error. I'm thinking that the short flaming time is due to smaller splits and very dry wood. Just burns quickly. It has been okay though because the cast iron holds the temps. a long time and the coals put out a lot of heat for a long time too as they burn down too. One fire in the morning to heat things up and another mid-afternoon usually keeps things in the 70's around here. I would just like to see the flames for longer. :coolsmile:
Thanks for the input. I'LL put it to use tomorrow.
Meathead- Sounds brilliant! I am going to try that method tomorrow. My Avalon Arbor(same as lopi leyden) has a bypass damper. Where/when in your scenario would you suggest closing that off?
woodburn said:
My setup doesn't involve a bypass damper so take this with a grain of salt - but it seems to me that once up to around 300* surface temp and climbing with good flame would be the time to close it off - right around the same time you would shut your primary down to 1/2. I haven't used a bypass damper on a non cat stove like yours so I could be off base here but once things have taken off to 300* you should be able to close the bypass and let the secondary roll and then adjust with your primary from there. If there is a specific temp you have had good luck shutting it down at, I would say follow the loading procedure I mentioned and shut the bypass when you reach the temp you have had luck with.
perplexed said:
Eh yeah that would explain short burn times. You've got to load it up tight and full and there need to be a couple big hunks of wood in there that take a long time to burn down. The only small splits I use are generally one resting on top of the ember row to kindle quickly and get things going and then maybe a couple to pack into gaps between big splits.
That being said, it's more important that you feel comfortable with your stove than it is that you get the max burn time out of it. Keep experimenting at a pace you feel comfortable with, and maybe start loading the firbox a little more fully and including some of the larger splits in your stash while you are around to see how it reacts. I'd rather need to wake up and reload than go to bed worrieing I was going to overfire the stove - but I'm sure you'll find that when you load the stove to capacity and shut the air down properly the temps don't spike significantly higher than the 700* you are seeing and you will get the longer burns you are looking for.
Yes I am loading as you said, with an even base of coals and I think too much of them. When I let them burn down too far I lose a lot of heat and also have a tough time getting things going again. I think it comes down the fully seasoned wood, as usual.
I have been using the method meathead posted and allthough I thought I had been doing it that way, I wasn't. I guess I figured leaving some burning coals in the back would help things and it probably does but only if need be as in the case of not having fully seasoned wood. I have been " hand picking " the spits and having much better success with meatheads method. Following the method much closer than before. It really is a trial an error thing and I think I'm getting closer to figuring it out. I still have the temp rising with the air all the way down at times but I'm sure it has to do with the splits in the back firing up before they should. Another condition related to seasoned wood I would think. It has been pounded into my head on this site from the beginning and is just starting to sink in I guess. Until you are dealing with seasoned wood I don't think you can come to any solid conclusions on burn time or anything else no matter what stove or insert you have. For now I will burn what I have and do the best I can and make any decisions on leaks and such when I can take the wood out of the equation.. I'm shceduled for an oil delivery tomorrow, first since July and even with that I have just under a half of a tank. I can't complain.
Have to chime in with archer since I have piggy-backed onto his thread...
Tried meathead's method yesterday - had good, cold outside temps. to work with - and it worked for me too. Loaded at 2:00p.m. and fire kept on going longer than I have ever been able to keep it going. At 8:00p.m. coals were still plenty warm and room temps. still in the 70's. (Outside temp. 22*).
Now I just have to work the kinks out.
Moral of the story - even those of us who start out confused and advance to VERY confused :bug: eventually get it if we hang around long enough for all of this to really sink in.
Keep coming back. :coolsmile:
Tried meathead's method yesterday - had good, cold outside temps. to work with - and it worked for me too. Loaded at 2:00p.m. and fire kept on going longer than I have ever been able to keep it going. At 8:00p.m. coals were still plenty warm and room temps. still in the 70's. (Outside temp. 22*).
Now I just have to work the kinks out.
Moral of the story - even those of us who start out confused and advance to VERY confused :bug: eventually get it if we hang around long enough for all of this to really sink in.
Keep coming back. :coolsmile:
Woodburn, You have a non cat stove with a bypass damper? Is this a top loading model? My stove has a bypass damper, but it's really only so you can top load without the damper being in the way, and so the smoke has a direct path up the chim instead of into the house. I never top load, so I leave it alone. I never start the fire with the bypass open.
Kudos on a good post meathead. Laying a big load of wood right on top of a spread out thick coal bed may make for a heck of a show and may get the stove maker good EPA numbers but it is nuts for heating your home. When all of the splits gasify at once you get the pleasure of watching approximately 1/3 of the heat value of the wood blast up the chimney at once. That an you end up with an 800 degree stove for a short, you hope, period and an overfired chimney along with it. Burning the way you suggest is harder to get started on occasion but it spreads out the burn of the volatiles in the wood rather than spiking and then declining rapidly.
And the added benefit is that your heart rate doesn't spike with the "atomic" burn and you don't have to stand around with 911 dialed and ready to hit the button on the phone.
And the added benefit is that your heart rate doesn't spike with the "atomic" burn and you don't have to stand around with 911 dialed and ready to hit the button on the phone.
Spread out coals is great for wet wood. That's the only way I can get decently low maintenance fires going with my locally-purchased-in-november wood.
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