Water Treatment, Ceramic Blankets, Insulation, Garn

[Patti]

Hi! A bunch of different questions here..... 1) Can anyone recommend a place to get boiler treatment chemicals in Ontario? How about places that do water testing for boilers? I'm in Midwestern Ontario (between Guelph and Owen Sound). So, pretty much anywhere in Southwestern Ontario would be okay as well (Toronto-Niagara Corridor). I have about 8-10 gallons of a product called Klenzoid from the former owner, but I want to get a really good cleaner to clean the boiler and flush all my PEX lines as I am SURE have mineral build -up. If no one knows of chemical suppliers and/or testers, perhaps you could give me the name of the products for both the pre-cleaning and treatment that you recommend (ie. on Amazon?). Between my Plumber who is doing the install and myself, we have all the chemical testing kits, so it's not "essential" that I find somebody, but I'd just like a second opinion to confirm that my testing was accurate, you know?!? (I have a guy lined up to come and test the gases & stuff as well.). The last thing I want is to screw this thing up! 2) Garn recommends building an enclosure around the boiler and insulating with fibreglass. However, I don't really want to do that this year (or ever if I don't have to!) If some heat escapes, it will be into my shop, so that's okay. So I've been contemplating different things I might be able to do to insulate it. I'll be doing a few different things together- just not necessarily these things... But I thought about putting some kind of reflective /insulating material (like the 2 layers of foil with the bubble wrap inside) but I can't use the kind with the bubble wrap) around the boiler first & securing with aluminum tape. Followed by a 2" ceramic wool blanket, again with the aluminum tape (and maybe some other kind of adhesive??) along the seams. Then, put another cover on like the first one, but this layer could probably have the bubble wrap in between. ) Someone said something about reflective insulation wouldn't help....but I'm not sure why...I mean...it's reflective the heat back in towards the boiler, and the outer layer on the last one will reflect the coolness away from the boiler, right? So if I add 2" of ceramic blanket that is rated for 3000* to that, should I have a pretty good thermal barrier? Has anyone used the high-end insulative paint? (BTW, it will be placed on 2" of high density foam underneath the entire thing as well.) Thoughts? Ideas? Feedback? Things you've tried? I can't wait to get this thing hooked up ...it was 51* in my house the other day 🥶 ...thankfully we had a few more warm days after that, but I couldn't get it above 58* so I broke down and bought two oil filled rad heaters. But my house is pretty open...and after 4 days of running them at full tilt, they've only managed to raise the temp 2* in the kitchen/living room area and in my bedroom -with the door closed. 20cm of sNOOOOw coming Sunday and -5C....so I am dreading it!! Ordering the new firebricks today, and perhaps the ceramic blanket. Got all the new stove pipes. Just waiting on replacement gaskets and a few other parts I ordered and the only other thing left to get is the chemical cleaner! So thank you to anyone who can answer any of these questions and point me in the right direction! I appreciate your help and feedback! Patti😊

 

[mynx]

Hi there. A couple things. First of all, as for using a chemical cleaner on the boiler – I assume you’re talking about inside the boiler causes me some concern. I would talk to Martin Lunde before I did that. Honestly, if you feel you need to clean it, get in there with a wire brush and just brush any loose debris off. Once you fill it, make sure you have installed a filter loop and just plan on changing the filter cartridge a couple times early on. I have learned the hard way that you need to be very nice to the steel in those boilers

As far as insulation goes, my boiler has 6 inches of foil backed fiberglass insulation all around with the seams taped. My boiler is in its own separate room off my shop and it gets quite hot in there – like 90°. I keep the door into my shop cracked open, and that keeps my shop, 70° on the coldest days. All that to say, if you don’t have make a separate room for your boiler, your shop is going to be very hot. Of course that does depend on how well insulated your shop is. I have our 45 in the Wallsh in our 70 in the ceiling but uninsulated slab. Also, make sure you insulate all your exposed plumbing or you’ll lose a lot of heat that way

 

[Patti]

Hi there. A couple things. First of all, as for using a chemical cleaner on the boiler – I assume you’re talking about inside the boiler causes me some concern. I would talk to Martin Lunde before I did that. Honestly, if you feel you need to clean it, get in there with a wire brush and just brush any loose debris off. Once you fill it, make sure you have installed a filter loop and just plan on changing the filter cartridge a couple times early on. I have learned the hard way that you need to be very nice to the steel in those boilers

As far as insulation goes, my boiler has 6 inches of foil backed fiberglass insulation all around with the seams taped. My boiler is in its own separate room off my shop and it gets quite hot in there – like 90°. I keep the door into my shop cracked open, and that keeps my shop, 70° on the coldest days. All that to say, if you don’t have make a separate room for your boiler, your shop is going to be very hot. Of course that does depend on how well insulated your shop is. I have our 45 in the Wallsh in our 70 in the ceiling but uninsulated slab. Also, make sure you insulate all your exposed plumbing or you’ll lose a lot of heat that way

Hi Mynx! Thanks for your reply. The Garn manual actually lists specific pre-cleaner and treatment solutions- but they’ve gone out of business. Apparently you need to pre-clean - has something to do with Nitrates and Nitrites, and it does something to the metal that stops one of those from corroding the metal. (That’s a ‘rough’ explanation😁- I don’t have the manuals here at the moment). It’s not really the boiler itself that I’m overly concerned about because the former owner cleaned and treated it and used the filters. What I’m MORE concerned with to be honest, is my pex tubing going to the house, and the pipes over there. I have super hard water, and it was either the previous boiler or the water itself, but it turned some clear tubing in the system completely brown. (My ‘all-knowing friend’ refused to listen to me and wouldn’t put the boiler treatment in 🤦‍♀️). This time I am making SURE every single thing in the manual is DONE exactly how it says to be done.
As for the insulation…I’m not really sure to be honest. Lots of fibreglass in the attic. Walls…I’m not too sure about - not much I don’t think. It’s a well constructed Fleming steel building. My Tarm boiler had most of the pipes covered and the shop was comfortable enough to work in a light jacket. It definitely needs insulation on the garage doors, new windows, caulking etc though.
You have 6” of foil-backed fibreglass- so what kind of R-value would that be? Is it separate batts put together or one 6” thick batt? If your room gets that hot, does that mean that the fibreglass isn’t really insulating it? And/or the foil isn’t adequately reflective heat back inwards and cool air outwards? I think I am confusing thermal properties and what different materials do. But I’m thinking in terms of a welding blanket - it reflects the heat back towards the source I think. 🤷‍♀️ I believe that is what the ceramic coated wool does as well. To ME, I think reflecting heat back inwards and/or insulating to keep the boiler as hot as possible is the same thing??!? 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️ But I’m getting the impression from some sources that it’s not- so I’m getting confused!! 🤪 All I am concerned with is keeping the boiler water as hot as possible for as long as possible- I don’t care if it’s through reflection, insulation or anything else!! 😁 I think the insulating wool is sounding like a good place to start, and I’ll tape the seams with aluminum tape as well. Then I’ll decide if I want something reflective on the outside to improve the heat retention. This Garn is definitely a bit of a learning curve!! 😁 Thanks again for your input! Patti

 

[Tonty]

I’ll post some pics from my Switzer manual on how I insulated mine. I agree that you will “loose” a lot of heat if you don’t insulate. My boiler is in a small room 10’x19’, and even with it insulated it stays at 90-115F in there.
On the pics, the batts it talks about is just simple unfaced fiberglass that I bought. The last drawing is of the foam board that goes over the batts. That came with the boiler pre-cut, but it’s just 1” foil backed duct board that had some v’s cut in the back side so that it could be curved or angled around the boiler. There are some metal angles taped to the corners with foil duct tape. You can see the finished product in the last pic. The piece of tin I put on there to protect the duct board since we walk along that edge.

 

[Tonty]

By the way, I have a sister that lives in the Owen Sound area. We hope to go see them next summer.

 

[Patti]

I’ll post some pics from my Switzer manual on how I insulated mine. I agree that you will “loose” a lot of heat if you don’t insulate. My boiler is in a small room 10’x19’, and even with it insulated it stays at 90-115F in there.
On the pics, the batts it talks about is just simple unfaced fiberglass that I bought. The last drawing is of the foam board that goes over the batts. That came with the boiler pre-cut, but it’s just 1” foil backed duct board that had some v’s cut in the back side so that it could be curved or angled around the boiler. There are some metal angles taped to the corners with foil duct tape. You can see the finished product in the last pic. The piece of tin I put on there to protect the duct board since we walk along that edge. View attachment 344699View attachment 344700View attachment 344701View attachment 344702

Hi Tonty! Thanks so much for your reply! Sorry for the delayed response- I've had pneumonia since December 3 and only got out of bed on Jan 12. (probably doesn't help that I'm heating my bedroom with a small propane heater - and the rest of the house is at 47* and I can see my breath! ) Thank you for your awesome detailed information and pictures. This is exactly what I was envisioning- and you did a really nice job! Before I got sick I had found a couple of companies that make covers for industrial boilers- thought I might just 'get a quote' but I'm sure they will be more than I want to spend. One company has 22,000 design plans in stock, as they custom cuts for any protruding /opening parts. You can get velcro closures, ties, snaps, zips- everything, so it's very easy to access if necessary. But...since all the opening are already cut out, I'm thinking it's not very often you'd have to take the cover off, so I'll probably just go with the ceramic blanket. You put 3, 6" layers of fibreglass on- so what kind of R value is that? This is where I get a little confused in the difference between 'refractory' products and 'insulation' products. They don't give a R-value for them- but instead give you the temperature that it is rated for to 'reflect' heat. I just want to make sure it will keep the heat IN and the cold OUT- I don't care what name they give it! The things I like about the ceramic blankets: the fibres are better contained, and they are only one or two inches thick. I think if I put two layers of 2" with the aluminum tape, it would be enough insulation. I like your idea with the boards on top as well, just to keep it from getting ripped, and give it a compact, finished look. I think I'll just order some and start playing around with it. I found a supplier in Quebec that sells the high heat refractory bricks for great prices, and they have the blankets as well. If it doesn't work, I can always throw it up in my attic! Now...my last hurdle is this pre-cleaning/treatment chemicals. I am getting such a wide span in pricing that it is making me second-guess myself on the products. A few would cost me anywhere from $2000-$3000 for the amount I need (which I find ludicrous), and then I found some that would be $500 or less. But then I start worrying when I read comments about chemicals that gunk up your system, or aren't supposed to be used on certain metal - and I start wondering why there is such a discrepancy in price. And then some products say you need two separate products for pre-cleaning and treating, while others say you use the same thing for both. Rectorseal makes a product that a lot of HVAC/wood boiler technicians rave about. I've left so many messages for companies that don't bother to return my calls...grrrrrr.... I might have heat by July.....hahaha.... Oh Man!! You're from Kansas and you have relatives in Owen Sound??! That's crazy! I'm not even an hour from Owen Sound, so if you come, you should message me and come on over for a drink! Have you ever been to Sauble Beach? Nice beach. But BELIEVE ME...you would NOT want to be there right now!! I HATE winter with a vengence...so living in the 'Snow Belt' was NOT where I thought I would ever own a house!! Thanks again for your reply! Patti

 

[Tonty]

I don’t really know anything about treating water. There’s pros and cons to each system. One pro of a closed/pressurized system boiler like a Switzer is that they aren’t as susceptible to rust because oxygen isn’t being introduced. I don’t run any treatment or filter. I have checked PH level and it was fine, but that’s all I’ve done.

 

[Tonty]

Have you ever been to Sauble Beach? Nice beach.

We haven’t been there to visit yet. They moved there 2 years ago or so from western Manitoba (my wife is also from MB), so we haven’t made it there yet.