Welder Hookup - Question & Any tips?

[Don2222]

Hello
Just got some # 6-3 and parts for a welder outlet install. Is the ground needed when using a energy star insulated double gang workbox for new construction?

 

[seige101]

You only need 6-2 you are only using 2 hots and a ground not a neutral connection for the welder. Yes the ground is required for your plug, simply cap off the white (neutral) with a wire nut

 

[Highbeam]

You only need 6-2 you are only using 2 hots and a ground not a neutral connection for the welder. Yes the ground is required for your plug, simply cap off the white (neutral) with a wire nut

That's what I did and passed inspection. Hook up the ground, your welder needs it. On these big circuits I always like to use 4 conductor cable (3 plus ground) since it is only slightly more money, same work, and allows you to upgrade that outlet to a four prong should you ever need to for some cool new welder device that wants a neutral.

 

[Don2222]

Hello
Yes guys but the new wire nowadays, the bare solid ground wire is not as heavy as the white neutral wire! So to pull all that current, should the neutral wire be used instead of the ground?
That is why 6-3 would be so much better

See pic below

 

[seige101]

No the ground wire should be hooked up. There should be no current running on it. Your welder is straight 240 volts.

 

[begreen]

Yes, the ground wire for short protection. It shouldn't be carrying any current.

 

[begreen]

Yes, the ground wire for short protection. It shouldn't be carrying any current.

 

[Don2222]

No the ground wire should be hooked up. There should be no current running on it. Your welder is straight 240 volts.

I just talked to my Electrician. The ground bus and neutral bus are connected together in the new main panels used in all homes today. In older panels there was only one bus where both grounds and neutrals were connected. Most new metal appliances today have a separate ground that does not carry power but is connected and grounded back at the panel. This is for safety and if for any reason the neutral is lost or disconnected the appliance will still be safe because the ground goes back to the circuit panel to carry the load. Most welders are not up to the new safety standards. If they are up to code they should have 4 wires with 4 prongs with the high current carring neutral wire plus the ground prong connected to the metal body for safety. Since most welders are still 3 wire with 3 prongs, meaning the current carring neutral is still connected to the metal body of the welder, but they should be connected thru a heavy Guage wire same as the 2 hot wires but usually thru a heavy white neutral wire to the circuit breaker box!
Most old boxes call this the ground buss and that the ground wire! Very confusing! LOL
So if you buy new 6-3 or 6-2 wire like I did, the ground wire is not heavy enough to carry the return load
I have all brand new circuit breaker boxes and sub panels. So this is the true explanation of how it did and does work now
The heavy neutral or heavy wire same as the hot wits must be used for that 3rd prong! Whew, I sure hope that explains it! LOL
When you think more about it, a 3 prong welder is like a 3 prong kitchen stove. The new kitchen stoves have all the metal body connected together to a ground wire and all the return power to the elements and power panel to the neutral wire. There should be a 4 prong plug and outlet and 10-3 which is basically 4 wires including the ground wire back to the panel for safety. Since most people do not re-wire their homes like I did with the 10-3 they came up with a 3 prong cord which connects the ground to the neutral and uses the 10-2 existing old house wire back to the fuse box!
Thanks for your inputs!
Therefore, it is done unless I get a welder with 4 prongs, then I can easily change the outlet!
See pics
Click to Enlarge:

 

[begreen]

This is for safety and if for any reason the neutral is lost or disconnected the appliance will still be safe because the ground goes back to the circuit panel to carry the load.

WTH? Did your electrician really say that? The ground does not carry the load. The neutral is only employed or needed if the device has 120v circuitry or options in addition to the 240v requirements. Example being electronics, a clock or oven light on a range. It is unnecessary for a 240V only device, new or old. The current, new Miller 252 welder for example requires no neutral because it there are no 120V components in it. A ground however is required and necessary for safety reasons if something shorts to the cabinet, motor frame, insulation failure etc..

 

[Don2222]

WTH? Did your electrician really say that? The ground does not carry the load.

There was a court case and I looked it up, it is public and on the web. A woman wiped down the counter with one hand and touched the controls on the stove with the other hand. The older stove did not have the case all wired to a separate ground wire! In fact the power return from the elements went to the control panel metal for return. The screws that held the panel to the stove got rusty and the return for the power was indeed very poor. Electricity could still jump thru but if there is a better path it will take it! So when the woman touched the stove and counter in that way the electricity found a much better path thru her eyeballs and blinded her This is a true story!
That is the reason for all these confusing ground seperated from neutral stuff and it only matters on appliances with metal bodies not all the plastic electrical items we buy

 

[begreen]

In that cited case it is due to a faulty ground. If the ground had been good, it would have carried current for a microsecond and then tripped the breaker or blown the fuse. It is not load bearing.

 

[Don2222]

In that cited case it is due to a faulty ground. If the ground had been good, it would have carried current for a microsecond and then tripped the breaker or blown the fuse. It is not load bearing.

True the ground in the appliance was very bad and maybe all the burners and oven were on to make so much current go thru that poor lady. Not sure to the extent of the blindness it caused her but she won the law suit!
If the ground was good, would the stove work as normal? Not sure what you mean about the breaker tripping? No GFCI on a 250 VAC appliance?

 

[begreen]

The stove could have been off and the current still could have gone through the lady if she was the best path to ground. You don't need GFCI for a short to trip a breaker.

 

[Don2222]

The stove could have been off and the current still could have gone through the lady if she was the best path to ground. You don't need GFCI for a short to trip a breaker.

Very true, a frayed or broken hot wire touching the metal body of the stove when there is a bad ground and the body does not go back to the panel for proper grounding can certainly cause that! In this case if the ground was good, it would trip the breaker!
Thanks for pointing that out BeGreen
That really helps to explain why a 4 wire plug is so much safer with 2 paths going back to the panel in case one path is lost!

 

[begreen]

That really helps to explain why a 4 wire plug is so much safer with 2 paths going back to the panel in case one path is lost!

Not at all. If the appliance or welder is exclusively 240v then the neutral wire does nothing at all. It is not connected to anything.

 

[begreen]

That really helps to explain why a 4 wire plug is so much safer with 2 paths going back to the panel in case one path is lost!

Not at all. If the appliance or welder is exclusively 240v then the neutral wire does nothing at all. It is not connected to anything and certainly not connected to the device's chassis the way a ground wire is.

 

[seige101]

You and your 'electrician' have no idea what you're talking about.
Begreen explained it best.

The code change was in 1996 where a ground and neutral used to be shared on electric ranges and dryers. It was changed because a loose ground connection that was doubling as the neutral to run the tiny 120volt load (light, clock timer) would make the entire metal casing of the appliance hot. a dryer or range is a 120/240 volt appliance. Your welder is a 240 volt appliance, it requires no neutral only a ground.

You wired it wrong.

The plug you installed is a nema 6-50 rated 250 volts with ground no neutral.


P.s. the picture you posted is of a sub panel located somewhere off the main panel or the meter is a meter main combination hence why the neutrals or grounds are separated again going back to the 1996 code change
/electrician for 15 years this year.

 

[Don2222]

You and your 'electrician' have no idea what you're talking about.
Begreen explained it best.

The code change was in 1996 where a ground and neutral used to be shared on electric ranges and dryers. It was changed because a loose ground connection that was doubling as the neutral to run the tiny 120volt load (light, clock timer) would make the entire metal casing of the appliance hot. a dryer or range is a 120/240 volt appliance. Your welder is a 240 volt appliance, it requires no neutral only a ground.

You wired it wrong.

The plug you installed is a nema 6-50 rated 250 volts with ground no neutral.
.

The circuit panel is a 125 amp sub panel off the main 200 amp panel.

Thanks for correcting me on that. You guys are 100% right

The white neutral is not needed,
The bare ground is usually connected
See
Ground VS Neutral - Miller Welding Discussion Forums

If new welders come with 110 device electronic meters... etc, then the neutral will be there!

Pic 1 - The white wire is capped off with a scotchlok polyvinyl Choloride Spring Twist-On Wire Connector
Pic 2 - 3 prong welder outlet installed!

 

[begreen]

Bare wire ground should always be connected. If not, I would consider it a defect and add a chassis ground.

 

[Don2222]

Bare wire ground should always be connected. If not, I would consider it a defect and add a chassis ground.

Good point, there is a valid reason for all this!
Thanks again BeGreen

 

[Don2222]

Hello
It works! See pics below

It took 58 Feet of 6-3 wire and the insulated new double gang workbox, cover plate and 50 amp welder outlet, 3/4" Romex connector and breaker was approx $125.00 not bad!

 

[Buzz Saw]

FYI. There are lots of 4 wire welders out on the market. However those 4 wire machines are 3 phase. 3 hots 1 ground, still no neutral.

Also the only time you would use the white wire to carry a load is in a 6/2 wire application or when using SO cord(240 volts) or 3 phase with 6/3 cable.

Stay safe out there.

 

[Don2222]

Hello
One more adjustment.
After researching many welders, I found there are many 120 vac welders that may work well here for light metal. In fact one of my top favorites is the fairly new model Millermatic 211 which is 240 or 120 vac. However a 120 vac 15 amp outlet is not going to cut the mustard here on amp draw so a 120 vac 20 amp outlet makes good sense. Really for another $33 dollars at Home Depot, I picked up a 25 foot roll of 12-2 yellow indoor Romex with only 2 feet left over, I changed out the single gang box with the 15 amp 120 vac outlet for a double gang box to add the 20 amp 120 vac outlet. However when I had to move the box up higher so it would not hit the 50 amp outlet, I hit a knot in the wood and the nail bent and the plastic on the box that holds the nail snapped and broke! Back to Home Depot for a quick change and moved the new box down slightly so the nail would be below the knot in the 2x6 and banged it right in!
Now the wiring is prepared for any welder.
So basically 3 circuits here with each outlet on a different circuit breaker for more power!
85 amps total!
See pic below:

 

[cableman]

Nice work. Wish my receipts showed no sales tax!

 

[Don2222]

Nice work. Wish my receipts showed no sales tax!

I grew up in MA and it was fine until 1960 when Governor John Volpe was elected and soon instituted a 3% sales tax that grew to 6.25% today
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._Volpe
So I moved across the state line to NH and many retail outlets followed suit!
When was your tax instituted?