Went to the dealership today...

[tiber]

Went to the dealership today - I'm not entirely sure I'm happy with the deal here.

For one, their prices are high-ish and they're only willing to give me $100 off the price of a stove. But they require a $100 "home inspection" which they say goes for the price of the stove if I buy one. While their installer was knowledgeable and willing to talk to me, I'm none too keen on some inspector (especially since the state doesn't require it) coming to my house and telling me I have to buy X, Y, Z or they won't install a stove. Oh and it would cost $100, so if I balk I'm out the $100.

That being said, the chimney is apparently just as expensive as the stove since they're requiring insane prices per length of stovepipe. The code requirement is to have the chimney terminate 10 ft above any roofline within 10ft of it, which makes for one tall chimney. At $250 per piece of 4 ft insulated pipe, this is another $500-ish on the spot. Or, to do an install from close-to-ground to the roof it's almost $2000. Seems awfully high to me. What's the forum think?

On the other hand, $100 off stoves (plus the tax credit) means that I don't have to pay delivery - they include it. So while I'm not getting much off the price of a stove, having it delivered free is worth something. Paying for installation has left me with cold feet.

For a basement install, they said it's not as common but it's doable. They did suggest registers ("holes in the floor") and they did overspec the stove. For an 1800SF house, they said a 2200SF stove would do it for a basement install without overdoing it. Does this sound reasonable? My other thought was to put the stove in the formal dining room we have which opens to a deck. It won't be as in the way and some of that waste heat surely will warm up the deck. How much waste heat actually comes out of a stovepipe on the outside of the house?

 

[meathead]

But they require a $100 "home inspection"

LOL

They don't sound worth dealing with to me.

As far as the stove size...it may be plenty - what "2200sf" stove are you getting?

Keep in mind, you have to heat your basement before you start really heating your house with a basement stove. I have a 1500sf house, a 2100 sf basement (basement under garage and porch), and I run a jotul f600 firelight. It is enough to keep things livable and comfortable for me (mid 60s in the house on our coldest days which are usually around 0)...generally not enough to heat the whole place to the wife's standards and certainly not enough to keep her in a tee shirt.

 

[Wet1]

Is your basement fully insulated? If not, I wouldn't place a stove down there. You're better off placing the stove on the main floor if that's an option, but that's not always an option.

 

[tiber]

This is for the quadra-fire. Knowing quite a bit about cars, I'm not interested in owning a catalytic stove nor do I understand why I absolutely need their three layer $250/4ft pipe. Yes I realize it's going to build up creosote, but I've resigned myself to cleaning it yearly anyway or I wouldn't be into this project. Also I hate to say it, but I'm very interested at this point in simply going to home depot and buying their $20/4ft insulated ducting and saying LOOK IT'S A CHIMNEY. Maybe I'm missing something - and that's why I'm posting here and love the advice of people smarter than me - but it seems like a rip.

EDIT: Negative on the insulation. I posted in another thread asking about it and the general consensus was insulating the walls was a must but insulating the ceiling was a trap for the rising hot air. I have old, old wood floors.

 

[meathead]

I'm very interested at this point in simply going to home depot and buying their $20/4ft insulated ducting and saying LOOK IT'S A CHIMNEY.

You'll burn your house down. Get a chimney that is specd for your application (you can get it cheaper than that if you shop around). Your life and your family's lives depend on it - no joke.

EDIT: Negative on the insulation. I posted in another thread asking about it and the general consensus was insulating the walls was a must but insulating the ceiling was a trap for the rising hot air. I have old, old wood floors.

If the basment is unfinished, foam board insulation will do the trick and is cheap for the walls. Old wood floors will be perfect.

 

[Fsappo]

It sounds like they are quoting you retail pricing for the chimney. It's their right to do so, but it also means you should be able to buy the pipe cheaper someplace.
$100 inspection fee that can be applied towards the purchase of a stove...that seems a little aggressive. I see their point, wanting to protect their interests. A lot of folks will ask for an estimate from a hearth shop just so they can get free advice on doing the work themselves and purchasing the equipment elsewhere. To my company, that is just the risk of doing business. We don't charge for estimates.
What we do, is spend enough time talking to the customer in the store to get them a close estimate. I'll say "If thats the price range your looking to be in, we can come out to confirm" It kind of lets me know if the customer is serious about making a purchase.
You claim their prices are high. Compared to what? We charge full retail in our shop September thru the end of the season, unless we have a slow moving product, something discontinued, etc. $100 off now when everyone is rushing to buy stoves may be nice if they are starting at the retail price to begin with. Why not tell us the stove and what they are charging, get some feedback.

Free delivery seems generous to me, considering the man power and equipment involved.

As for the basement install, I would seriously oversize the stove. You'll read a lot on these forums about basement walls sucking a lot of heat that a stove puts off. On the other hand, in a lot of cases if you oversize the stove, you still get plenty of heat, and warm floors as a bonus.

Hope that helps

 

[tiber]

You’ll burn your house down. Get a chimney that is specd for your application (you can get it cheaper than that if you shop around). Your life and your family’s lives depend on it - no joke.

On one hand I'm sympathetic to this argument but then again the pipe is much cheaper somewhere else. (broken link removed) Half the price. Still spendy, but at almost 50% off per section the price is much easier to sell my wife on.

Next post...

$100 inspection fee that can be applied towards the purchase of a stove...that seems a little aggressive. I see their point, wanting to protect their interests. A lot of folks will ask for an estimate from a hearth shop just so they can get free advice on doing the work themselves and purchasing the equipment elsewhere. To my company, that is just the risk of doing business. We don't charge for estimates.

See if you were down here (here being the burbs of Norristown, PA) I'd have you come out. I'm interested in purchasing a stove, but not if the markup is 50% on everything else.

You claim their prices are high. Compared to what?

Compared to doing it myself. The internet has the quadrafires and free shipping. While a tad more expensive, it all goes back to that 50% markup on materials and I can't get over it. If it were $500 for a chimney I'd just say to heck with it and pay up, but since I was quoted $2000 to $2500 for the chimney, this is suddenly much more dear to my heart (and wallet). The whole spirit of the project is to get the price down and away from oil. The more oil prices rise (or fall) the more or less I have to make up.

Why not tell us the stove and what they are charging, get some feedback.

Despite walking in after reading everything on this forum here, I still felt underprepared. Nothing like thinking you've done your homework and totally feeling like a fish out of water. I was going to buy the biggest, baddest woodstove I could find and ended up walking out thinking about pellets and corn. Anyway, it would be a quadrafire -> (broken link removed to http://www.quadrafire.com/Products/Wood_Burning/Wood_Model.asp?f=3100MILL)

As for the basement install, I would seriously oversize the stove. You'll read a lot on these forums about basement walls sucking a lot of heat that a stove puts off. On the other hand, in a lot of cases if you oversize the stove, you still get plenty of heat, and warm floors as a bonus. Hope that helps.

How big exactly and would oversizing let me burn less wood if I find I'm living in the fires of hell if needbe? And yes, thanks in advance for the help.

 

[Fsappo]

Find a dealer for Enerzone and buy their 3.4 model. It's a beast and retails for about 2K with the blower. Buy the chimney pipe from a plumbing and heating wholesaler or something. Just shop around and make sure your getting class A chimney. Double or triple wall doesnt make much difference

 

[Wet1]

I haven't read the details in this thread but please note my previous post and recommendation. Place the stove on the main floor if possible. The basement walls must be insulated, not the ceiling though (that would be bad). As Meat said, use foam board on the walls, but to meet code they must be covered (shitrock). He's also right about using the proper flue... use class A or something rated to 2100°+, nothing less

Regarding the cat, a cat stove will burn significantly longer and more efficiently. What this means is you'll use less wood (even if you scrounge your wood, you still wont have to work as hard gathering it) and the stove can run at a lower, more consistent temp. Yes the cat will have to be replaced every 4 to 10 years, but that's one expense I'll take any day for all the benefits they offer. Being able to reload my stove once or twice a day is worth a lot more to me than replacing a $200 cat once every 7 years... especially when I don't have to get up in the middle of the night to reload or come home to a cold house!

Sometimes saving a dollar doing something half-azz can cost you much more in the long run...

 

[Backwoods Savage]

I just have to state that when I started reading about scrimping on the chimney, I almost just went to the next thread because I wanted no part in this. However, realizing the danger, real danger!, I decided to post. To spend $2000 for a chimney (I presume a SS chimney) is not out of line at all.

You have to ask yourself what the purpose of a chimney is. Is it just a channel for smoke to travel in? Well, if smoke travels in that channel, what temperature are we talking about? Would you feel safe if you realize 1000 degrees or hotter gasses and smoke goes through that channel? What if you had a chimney fire? Whoa!! How will you clean that chimney and how often?

Please do yourself a big favor and do the install right even if it cost a few dollars more than you expected.

btw, we did install a new SS chimney up the side of the house and it did cost around what you are quoting and yes, it is worth it.

 

[Pagey]

Tiber, please take a few minutes to read this article: (broken link removed to http://www.woodstove.com/pages/basement_install.html) It will show you how many BTUs an uninsulated basement can lose per day, and it is a real eye opener. I know a lot of people think a basement install will "keep the mess downstairs," but I don't mind sweeping up some wood chips for two reasons: 1.) I like the room I'm in to be the warmest and 2.) I like looking at the beautiful secondary combustion fire produced by my non-cat stove.

Second, do NOT cut corners on your chimney. You want UL103 HT rated Class A pipe. That is, pipe that is rated for up to 1,000F continuous operation and tested for 3 ten minute periods of 2,100F in the event of a chimney fire. The chimney is the engine that drives your draft and provides a safe exit for HOT combustion gases. Read about modern Class A chimneys here: (broken link removed to http://www.woodstove.com/pages/basement_install.html)

I know it may sound like some of our replies are trying to rain on your parade, but it's exactly the opposite: we want all burners to have safe installations at the end of the day. As I like to say, when you heat with wood, you're inviting FIRE into your home. Invite it in the safest manner possible, please, and you'll enjoy many years of the best heat you've ever experienced.

 

[tiber]

I just have to state that when I started reading about scrimping on the chimney, I almost just went to the next thread because I wanted no part in this

Well, I'm glad I didn't post the original comment of "I was just going to weld a bunch of 55 gallon drums together and the first fire would push all those gasoline fumes out the top". Guys, the link I provided to the pipe showing the much better deal was a class A pipe. Although I appreciate the concern. I am interested in hearing from other people who decided to DIY.

RE - insulation - it seems I need to go to home depot and get some R14 to hang up.

 

[CTburning]

[quote author="tiber" date="1255475547"]This is for the quadra-fire. Knowing quite a bit about cars, I'm not interested in owning a catalytic stove

A cat stove might be exactly what you are looking for. What is more efficient: A truck running with a cat coverter or my old old old dodge with air injection. That is essentially what burn tubes are. If you are going to be running your stove full out all the time, go with any epa stove. If you want longer burn times especially at a lower temp, if you plan on being in the basement with the stove running, look into a cat stove. It is more efficient at lower burns and will allow you to keep that area warm for a longer period of time.

 

[jtp10181]

I have a customer with a 3100Mil in a basement and he complained it didn't anything for heating the space up, or the upstairs. I ran the thing for 15-20 mins and had the top at like 700F and the ceiling above it was 90F. The concrete walls 8ft away to the front had gone from 65F to like 68F, all the other concrete walls were maybe 66F or 67F. Nothing wrong with the stove, he just expected it to work magic.

I would go bigger.

 

[semipro]

Tiber, please take a few minutes to read this article: (broken link removed to http://www.woodstove.com/pages/basement_install.html) It will show you how many BTUs an uninsulated basement can lose per day, and it is a real eye opener. ....

Thanks Pagey for posting that link. I just spent a lot of money and time installing a new stove on our 1st floor after having used one in the basement for 9 years. Most of my justification is substantiated in that article. Reading that article reminded me why I needed to do that so badly.

 

[Fsappo]

I haven't read the details in this thread but please note my previous post and recommendation. Place the stove on the main floor if possible. The basement walls must be insulated, not the ceiling though (that would be bad). As Meat said, use foam board on the walls, but to meet code they must be covered (shitrock). He's also right about using the proper flue... use class A or something rated to 2100°+, nothing less

Regarding the cat, a cat stove will burn significantly longer and more efficiently. What this means is you'll use less wood (even if you scrounge your wood, you still wont have to work as hard gathering it) and the stove can run at a lower, more consistent temp. Yes the cat will have to be replaced every 4 to 10 years, but that's one expense I'll take any day for all the benefits they offer. Being able to reload my stove once or twice a day is worth a lot more to me than replacing a $200 cat once every 7 years... especially when I don't have to get up in the middle of the night to reload or come home to a cold house!

Sometimes saving a dollar doing something half-azz can cost you much more in the long run...

You have a stove that burns 24 hours? What kind?