What do I need...

[Matt B]

...to quickly heat a cabin.

Please excuse me. I am a total newbie, and this is my first inquiry into a world I know nothing about.

We have a small Forest Service cabin at around 8000 feet elevation. During the winter, it can be near or below freezing inside when we arrive. How can I heat the inside up quickly? We have a conventional fireplace, with a passive room warming system, basically channels through the masonry.

The fireplace takes a LONG time to heat up the room (no surprise). The electric heaters take half a day to warm the inside up enough to take jackets off.

What should I consider? Wood stove insert in the fireplace? Separate wood stove? Pellet stove? I don't want to add propane.

Thanks!

 

[begreen]

Is power a certainty? Does the noise of a small furnace ok? If no, then a pellet stove probably is not a good solution. If yes, then a pellet stove can be quite convenient.

Do you have a picture of the fireplace and some dimensions? Is fully seasoned wood at the cabin easy to come by and maintain?

 

[GENECOP]

https://www.rocketheater.com/

 

[Matt B]

Is power a certainty? Does the noise of a small furnace ok? If no, then a pellet stove probably is not a good solution. If yes, then a pellet stove can be quite convenient.

Do you have a picture of the fireplace and some dimensions? Is fully seasoned wood at the cabin easy to come by and maintain?

Power is reliable, and if it failed, we would just drive home. Noise not a problem for the initial heat up - we have been using a 30-amp shop heater that sounds like a train, though it is inadequate.

No good photos of the fireplace. The idea started after the snow, and at last check the road was not passable. I do plan to try to get there soon.

How noisy is a pellet stove? Can it be quiet like have a normal conversation next to it?

 

[Matt B]

https://www.rocketheater.com/

Six hundred degrees in a few minutes? I will research this more. Thanks for the idea, amigo!

Have you used one? Happy with it?

 

[begreen]

Sounds good. A basic pellet stove is pretty noisy with the convection blower on high. There is also a combustion blower. You can have a conversation over it and once the room has warmed up enough the blower speed can be reduced to a more tolerable level. Some pellet stoves are quieter than others. The quietest ones are pricey. A nice feature on many is that they can be thermostatically controlled.

If the shop heater is 8,000 BTUs/hr then a pellet stove will make a large difference. Depending on the model it will put out 2 to 4 times as much heat.

Is there wireless internet at the cabin? That might bring up another option.

 

[begreen]

Six hundred degrees in a few minutes? I will research this more. Thanks for the idea, amigo!

Have you used one? Happy with it?

It sounds great, but watch the hype. In order to heat up the place it takes a lot of btus. If an 8000 btu shop heater is inadequate after 8 hrs then this won't work.

 

[Matt B]

Sounds good. A basic pellet stove is pretty noisy with the convection blower on high. There is also a combustion blower. You can have a conversation over it and once the room has warmed up enough the blower speed can be reduced to a more tolerable level. Some pellet stoves are quieter than others. The quietest ones are pricey. A nice feature on many is that they can be thermostatically controlled.

If the shop heater is 8,000 BTUs/hr then a pellet stove will make a large difference. Depending on the model it will put out 2 to 4 times as much heat.

Is there wireless internet at the cabin? That might bring up another option.

The shop heater claims to be 18,500 BTU. It puts out a lot of heat, and it is great for getting the cabin from 50 degrees to 70 degrees. I can feel a difference in about ten minutes. Last time I was there, it was about 35 degrees inside, and the shop heater didn't seem to do much for a long time. I know it is a tall order when everything inside is cold.

There is currently no wireless at the cabin. It could be added, but I shy from the cost. We might actually use the cabin under these conditions 3 or 4 times a year, because the road is often impassible. I will say it is great in the summer - 115 in Tucson and 80 there. I saw a reference to using a cheap pay-per-minute cell PHONE as a wi-fi, but could never find any reliable information.

Please share another option!

 

[Matt B]

It sounds great, but watch the hype. In order to heat up the place it takes a lot of btus. If an 8000 btu shop heater is inadequate after 8 hrs then this won't work.

True it doesn't give a BTU rating. Keeping a space warm and warming it are two different things. My desire is for tons of heat very quickly, and then much less output to maintain the heat.

 

[Matt B]

An answer on the wood. I am not against buying and hauling wood or the manufactured wood sticks. Typical winter cabin stays would be for a day or two, maybe four times a winter, so seasonal consumption would be relatively small.

 

[armanidog]

Does the cabin have decent insulation?

 

[Matt B]

Does the cabin have decent insulation?

Not modern standards, but yes. Fiberglass batts in the walls, not sure what is in the roof. Might be the shingles over the wood planks.

 

[peakbagger]

There is a former fire wardens cabin in White Mountain National Forest NH at 4000 feet of elevation (near treeline in our area). Not a lick of insulation. Its built on rocks so cold air can get in through the floor For several years a Jotul 602 was the source of heat and it worked well until the FS decided that it was a risk they did not want to manage. In keeping with local long term policy they were desperately trying to burn it down but it got listed on a Historic Fire Tower list so its an albatross. Sadly the stove is gone There is also a cabin run by a non profit in the WMNF at treeline on Mt Madison NH at 4370 feet, its larger (capacity 15) with a main floor and second floor attic for sleeping. Its a very tight insulated building. Temps routinely go down below minus 20F in winter and on occasion -30F. They installed a Hearthstone and burn bio bricks as all the fuel has to be helicoptered in. It will heat the place much warmer but they limit it due to the fuel issue. They only used to use the stove to warm the space over freezing in the evenings but they now have to heat it 24/7 above freezing due to moisture issues in winter as the guests coming to stay inevitably have wet and snowy gear on which melts into a cloud of vapor. Hearthstone is made in the US and they have EPA 2020 compliant stoves. They put out a lot of heat but will take longer to put out heat. Looks to me that someone from your department has to come visit to see GrayKnob for fact finding once COVID restrictions are past (they have caretaker up there but no guests currently.

A Jotul 602 is small radiant stove about 1/3 the size of a Hearthstone. Radiant heat is the best to get warm quick as all the masonry is just sucking the heat of the room for what I expect is days. If you are line of sight with the stove the room temp is not really important. The best example is standing in the sun on cold day. Ideally you want a small stove that warms up its surface area fast.

If you need to buy new one, they meet the current EPA 2020 regulations. They do not take up much room, two people can easily pick one up and move it seasonally. If you are allowed to buy used there are similar Morso's out there and if you get really lucky you might find a orphan Jotul 606 or Morso equivalent with an extended surface area with the same footprint.

 

[Matt B]

Peakbagger,

There is a lot to digest there - Jotul, Morso, Bio Bricks, radiant heat... I am grateful for your sharing that. Very helpful!

 

[peakbagger]

Glad to help. Hopefully you can get it done without 5 years of USFS paperwork

 

[begreen]

True it doesn't give a BTU rating. Keeping a space warm and warming it are two different things. My desire is for tons of heat very quickly, and then much less output to maintain the heat.

Depending on the size of the stove, a pellet stove can put out about 32,000 to 60,000btu/hr. There are also pellet furnaces that can put out higher output, but it sounds like something putting out 40,000 btu/hr would suffice nicely.

 

[begreen]

A place to start is to find out what fuel is easily available in your region. If you are only visiting the cabin 4 times during the coldest weather then stockpiling a few bags of pellets or boxes of compressed brick fuel (bio-bricks, eco bricks, redstones, etc.) for each weekend would not be a big deal. Is there a Tractor Supply store in your area? That would be a good place to look.
Installing a wood stove may be more expensive, but a good radiant stove will be quieter, and depending on the choice, some offer a nice fire view too. The fireplace's lintel height will play a critical role in this choice if a freestanding stove is chosen. An insert will be more convective, that is dependent on the blower, but some insert have pretty quiet blower systems.

 

[KindredSpiritzz]

looks like you will have to replace the burn grate on that rocket heater every couple years, course i suppose it depends on how much use it gets "Despite its exotic alloy construction, the extreme combustion temperatures of a Rocket Heaters means we can only guarantee the burn grate will last one year. Some customers have reported the grate lasting up to 5 years. "

 

[Matt B]

A place to start is to find out what fuel is easily available in your region. If you are only visiting the cabin 4 times during the coldest weather then stockpiling a few bags of pellets or boxes of compressed brick fuel (bio-bricks, eco bricks, redstones, etc.) for each weekend would not be a big deal. Is there a Tractor Supply store in your area? That would be a good place to look.
Installing a wood stove may be more expensive, but a good radiant stove will be quieter, and depending on the choice, some offer a nice fire view too. The fireplace's lintel height will play a critical role in this choice if a freestanding stove is chosen. An insert will be more convective, that is dependent on the blower, but some insert have pretty quiet blower systems.

Specifically...

No Bio-Brick within 1000 miles. Pellets at Tractor Supply within our normal shopping range. TS can get Redstone bricks. Hardwood firewood available, but about $1 a stick. I have about 1.5 cords of wood here, but it is mixed junky stuff - palo verde, mesquite, scrap framing wood, pallets, etc.

Blowers! I had wondered if a stove insert would be less effective than a freestanding, but I bet the blowers mostly make up for that. We had a stove insert in a fireplace in Texas. I loved it, but a cold winter morning was usually 45-50 degrees, and inside a mostly warm house.

I could install an insert, or we have some floor space where a free-standing could go. Sounds dumb, but if we had a free-standing (not at the fireplace) we would lose the spot where we keep the outdoor chairs.

It seems like a stove or pellet insert at the fireplace would be a safe and obvious location, and would give the visual appeal of a fire without the smoke and stuff. Question! Can a pellet stove be used as a regular fireplace? Open the door and throw sticks into it?

 

[Matt B]

looks like you will have to replace the burn grate on that rocket heater every couple years, course i suppose it depends on how much use it gets "Despite its exotic alloy construction, the extreme combustion temperatures of a Rocket Heaters means we can only guarantee the burn grate will last one year. Some customers have reported the grate lasting up to 5 years. "

Good point you make, but a year of use might take us more than our life times!

 

[begreen]

Can a pellet stove be used as a regular fireplace? Open the door and throw sticks into it?

No, absolutely not.
A pellet stove or insert may work out well. It will be higher maintenance than a wood stove and will have a blowtorch flame, but heat is heat and bagged fuel is convenient. You should ask about pellet inserts in the Pellet Forum and also ask about how well Tractor Supply pellets burn. There can be quite a difference between different brands.

 

[Matt B]

Thanks all of you! You have given me knowledge and direction. I will research pellet stoves and get up the mountain and measure the space when I can. I will have tons of additional questions, but they will likely be better addressed in the more specific forums.

 

[MMH]

Just to tag on here, I wouldn’t completely discount a wood stove just yet; depending on your area but a good pellet can be just as expensive as a good wood stove. Also, as mentioned radiant and convective heating options, I have a blower on my wood stove and on high it’s still quieter than my pellet stove was. Lastly, as far as reliable power, I’m sure Texas and California thought theirs was reliable also (no offense to anyone) it’s reliable until it’s not. No power, no heat in a lot of these options. You mentioned if you lose power you could just go home, but also mention impassible roads, perhaps the 2 could arrive together..another reason to have something not relying on power, maybe far fetched and now a big deal assuming you didn’t go up in a forecast such as that, or saw it coming and headed home etc but things to consider.

 

[Matt B]

Just to tag on here, I wouldn’t completely discount a wood stove just yet; depending on your area but a good pellet can be just as expensive as a good wood stove. Also, as mentioned radiant and convective heating options, I have a blower on my wood stove and on high it’s still quieter than my pellet stove was. Lastly, as far as reliable power, I’m sure Texas and California thought theirs was reliable also (no offense to anyone) it’s reliable until it’s not. No power, no heat in a lot of these options. You mentioned if you lose power you could just go home, but also mention impassible roads, perhaps the 2 could arrive together..another reason to have something not relying on power, maybe far fetched and now a big deal assuming you didn’t go up in a forecast such as that, or saw it coming and headed home etc but things to consider.

Getting stuck and without power is unlikely but not impossible, and you make a good point. In a rare circumstance, this whole situation could turn from fussy city people wanting to be comfortable, to needing to survive. If we commit to using the cabin in intense cold, we should also have a backup plan.

Thanks!

 

[Matt B]

Another question!

For my goal of heating up a 30-ish degree cabin quickly, I am guessing that bigger is better. A stove with 60,000 BTU would do this much faster than 30,000BTU? Is there such thing as too big, or is that more of a cost and space consideration? Am I also correct in thinking that a pellet stove can be "turned down" more quickly that a wood stove?