whats the deal with european inserts?

[hardboiledeggs]

hey guys, still going through my search of finding the right insert for me. have been looking for the largest and widest inserts i can find and kind of ended up down the rabbit hole across the pond. in north america the widest insert i can find is about ~32 or so inches but in europe i can find about a dozen that are 1 meter (40 inches). they aren't epa certified but list their efficiencies and are eu rated between 70/85%. the weird thing is that even with the large sizes the highest output i can find is around 15KW (50000btu). they all seem to have secondary burn systems and circulating fans too. Other thing is that even with currency conversion, their prices seem pretty good. Im in canada so i think id likely have better luck importing one than you guys down south but is this a route worth perusing or am i missing something? any one in europe or someone whose bought one have any insight?
thank you
some of the units i found

Wood burning steel stove KRATKI KARI 95 Ø 180 14 kW | Kratki

The KARI 95 stove with a rated output of 14 kW is the ideal solution for efficiently heating large spaces. Unique, modern and environmentally friendly, it meets the criteria of the Ecodesign and the strict German BlmschV II standard. Thanks to its advance

kratki.com

Dik Geurts Instyle 1000V 9-13kw

Dik Geurts Instyle 1000V 9-13kw

cheshiredesigncentre.co.uk

Products

QBOX 100 is a 100 cm wide wood burning fireplace insert with front ventilation and access to tax benefits.

www.mcz.it

Insert de leña Sere 100 - Hergom

Perfect panoramic view for heating large rooms

www.hergom.com

Studio Air Edge+ Inset Wood Burning Fires

Making for easy finishing around your Stovax Studio Air wood burning fire, the Edge+ frame provides a similar minimalist finish to the Edge, but with a

www.stovax.com

Nova | Ravelli

5-star wood insert - linear and clean design - wide view of the flame - optional ducting kit - optional front ventilation kit

eng.ravelligroup.it

Carbel I100 Insert stove | Wood Stove Online

Carbel I100 Insert stove, discover the I range of new insert stoves. Design, excellent output, perfomance and high efficiency. Official Carbel distributor..

www.woodstoveonline.com

 

[stoveliker]

I think that with shipping cost and custom (you'll need a broker for importing), it's likely a wash financially.
Shipping a heavy bulky item is expensive.

Is it allowed in Canada to install a non-approved appliance?
Also, that first one is not an insert?

 

[begreen]

Their marketing has different terminology. An insert can be different there. This is similar to US marketing calling a ZC fireplace an insert, though many European designs are quite different in construction and requirements than US ZCs. In part this may be due to the prevalence of all masonry building construction in some areas.

 

[hardboiledeggs]

I think that with shipping cost and custom (you'll need a broker for importing), it's likely a wash financially.
Shipping a heavy bulky item is expensive.

Is it allowed in Canada to install a non-approved appliance?
Also, that first one is not an insert?

Family has a dealership so we have a lady who can handle shipping arragements. regardless if its a wash then id likely side on the larger unit.
As far as i know we are a lot easier on emmisions stuff here in canada, we can still delete diesels at least.
and posted wrong unit on that first one

Fireplace cassette KRATKI ARKE 95 14 kW Ø 200 self closing door | Kratki

ARKE cassette is a closed fireplace type, which is installed in existing open fireplaces. Its simple and elegant look goes hand in hand with excellent heating parameters. What is more, it has a clean glass system, which along with a separate container, he

kratki.com

 

[hardboiledeggs]

Their marketing has different terminology. An insert can be different there. This is similar to US marketing calling a ZC fireplace an insert, though many European designs are quite different in construction and requirements than US ZCs. In part this may be due to the prevalence of all masonry building construction in some areas.

ya been a little confusing to decifer. my mind still works in inches/feet even though canada is metric, main difference i see is they use a "cassette" style fireplace but i havent seen anything that says they need different clearances than what we have in NA

 

[Wisco Shepherd]

One thing to note would be customer support. I would prefer my stove was made in or near the country I use it in for parts, support, that sort of thing. If you have problems the local sweep may not be able to help out.

 

[ctreitzell]

I don’t have an insert, but I live in Europe (France) and purchased a wood burning stove at a French big box store (Castorama) in 2022. My stove is a Panadero Delice/Dover

Frankly, the challenge has been adjusting my American brain to the ongoing in development “regulations” of appliances governed by the EcoDesign edicts which appear to be constantly changing.

Some reading here

My current understanding is aligned with EcoDesign 2022 and it’s all I can do to keep the 2022 regs in my processes…I have not fully read nor understand the latest developments outlined in EcoDesign 2024 which appears to have been released in July, 2024 as I have linked here.

These EcoDesign regs cover most, if not all, energy-related appliances and said appliances prescribed usage.

It has been a hair-puller for me and general salespeople at large are in the business to sell and are excellent at spreading confusion…so, consumer beware and educate yourself before purchasing anything.

First and foremost, I would say forego getting focused on aesthetics and arrive at whatever functionality you require.

15Kw sounds like an EcoDesign ceiling rather than nominal usage value. My stove is rated at a much, much higher output than it is actually capable of delivering without potential and actual damage to the unit. Yes, I have been using this stove beyond the manufacturer suggested usage; BUT my stove was sold to me for the output I’m using it for. I would say my Delice was mis-sold to my family by the equivalent of a Home Depot store rep who works in the plumbing dept.

I could go on and on.

Basically, in Europe, the powers that be have determined large fireboxes are no longer allowed and even if you can have a large firebox, users should never add more than 2 splits (not touching each other or the walls of the appliance) on top of a coal base for reloads. At least that’s what EcoDesign 2022 stipulated. Frankly, that type of usage is utterly impractical in actual daily/ hourly usage. By that logic, a reload must be carried out every hour at reasonable “clean” burning” air-flow burn rate.

Further, I have read the owners manuals from a few different EcoDedign compliant wood stoves and the instructions for use are nearly identical…governed by EcoDesign regs.

All that said, there is no police force enforcing these recommendations of usage, so the sims don’t necessarily have a regulatory body to answer to that I know of.

If I was you, OP, I’d find what I need in Canada

You might not achieve the aesthetic look you desire, but you’ll have more control under your local regulations.

One other note on spare parts. In my case, Panadero is in Spain and I’m in NW France. The original baffle in my stove deformed immediately after I started using the stove. I was overloading it and likely over-firing. I tried to order a new baffle assembly direct from Panadero. Since I purchased at a big box store; I was told by Panadero to order spares from Panadero not on Panadero’s online shop through the big box where so purchased the appliance. We did so, the big box store figured out the cost and took payment. The baffle never arrived. Countless trips by my wife to the big box store yielded no baffle. After a year + of this runaround, Castorama gave up and said it was impossible to acquire a spare from Panadero.

I sent an email to Panadero via their contact form on their web site and within 2 months I received a new baffle plate. The problem was clearly a language issue.

Anyway, my point is, you have to take charge nowadays if you want anything done for you.

 

[Trevor Tahclep]

Just because it can be imported does not mean that once here if inspected by customs it will be allowed in. They will be closely looking for certain certification tags for conformity to our North American and Canadian standards, if not there it could be refused and impounded to be later disposed of and sold by the pound. That is why European manufactured cars/vehicles destined for USA and Canada are quite different in many specs than the ones sold in Europe.

 

[moor]

Also insurance. Im not sure an insurance carrier would insure anything without the proper US certifications.

 

[ctreitzell]

pretty funny

my dad was a dealership service manager his entire career

back in the 00s, when Ford Focus was very popular, I asked why the US version of the Focus was so ugly compared with the European version. He said the different countries had different rules and the Euro version was designed to last 300K miles...US version was designed to 100K

do your research and ask questions at the correct points for any shipping

I give another example
my wife and I had some things stored in the USA for over 20 years. We looked at various shipping possibilities for years. It never really was financially viable for the stuff we wanted to ship from USA to "europe". Well, in 2019, on our trip to California. we decided to ship regardless of cost. In the end we shipped nearly everything with the US Postal Service. But two dinning chairs we could not find a reasonable shipping method.

Well, we were traveling first class, and in first class we boxed up those chairs in huge boxes and paid excess baggage. It was about $150! The shipping companies wanted to sell us a container for $5K, minimum! Duh, problem solved.

 

[ctreitzell]

Also insurance. Im not sure an insurance carrier would insure anything without the proper US certifications.

this is why I have had to avoid trying to buy a big fire box like Drolet for install here in France...I've been assuming my homeowner's ins wouldn't cover us with a stove not installed by a certified professional...and, if I did hire a professional wood burning stove installation to install a design now deemed disallowed in my region, said install would have to decline to carry out the work. I did ask at one place and the salesperson said no.

BUT, I just asked my missus, and she says our Panadero and existing (badly, improperly spec'd) chimney is known by our insurance and noted and approved. If there was actually a fire caused by that install, tho...I'm not certain what the situation would be.

 

[European Burner]

hey guys, still going through my search of finding the right insert for me. have been looking for the largest and widest inserts i can find and kind of ended up down the rabbit hole across the pond. in north america the widest insert i can find is about ~32 or so inches but in europe i can find about a dozen that are 1 meter (40 inches). they aren't epa certified but list their efficiencies and are eu rated between 70/85%. the weird thing is that even with the large sizes the highest output i can find is around 15KW (50000btu). they all seem to have secondary burn systems and circulating fans too. Other thing is that even with currency conversion, their prices seem pretty good. Im in canada so i think id likely have better luck importing one than you guys down south but is this a route worth perusing or am i missing something? any one in europe or someone whose bought one have any insight?
thank you
some of the units i found

Wood burning steel stove KRATKI KARI 95 Ø 180 14 kW | Kratki

The KARI 95 stove with a rated output of 14 kW is the ideal solution for efficiently heating large spaces. Unique, modern and environmentally friendly, it meets the criteria of the Ecodesign and the strict German BlmschV II standard. Thanks to its advance

kratki.com

Dik Geurts Instyle 1000V 9-13kw

Dik Geurts Instyle 1000V 9-13kw

cheshiredesigncentre.co.uk

Products

QBOX 100 is a 100 cm wide wood burning fireplace insert with front ventilation and access to tax benefits.

www.mcz.it

Insert de leña Sere 100 - Hergom

Perfect panoramic view for heating large rooms

www.hergom.com

Studio Air Edge+ Inset Wood Burning Fires

Making for easy finishing around your Stovax Studio Air wood burning fire, the Edge+ frame provides a similar minimalist finish to the Edge, but with a

www.stovax.com

Nova | Ravelli

5-star wood insert - linear and clean design - wide view of the flame - optional ducting kit - optional front ventilation kit

eng.ravelligroup.it

Carbel I100 Insert stove | Wood Stove Online

Carbel I100 Insert stove, discover the I range of new insert stoves. Design, excellent output, perfomance and high efficiency. Official Carbel distributor..

www.woodstoveonline.com

Hi mate, I'm Spanish and I live in Madrid and I'm going to give you my opinion. Don't invent what has already been invented, and burning wood was invented in America, end of story. I started with a Bodart & Gonay insert which is like the Mercedes in cars, nothing to do with any of the shoe boxes you mentioned, and in less than 2 years I realized that I wasn't going to be able to heat my house with wood nor was I going to earn enough money to pay for it. That said, as a sport it's good because you never stop making trips to recharge. Now, seriously, as the other forum member said, wood-burning appliances in Europe are not designed to function as main heaters but as auxiliary heaters and decorative or luxury items. Also here, unlike in Canada and the United States, most people live in apartment blocks where it's not possible to burn wood. Furthermore, the European regulations are absurd, so much so that instead of improving the manufacturing of new products by taking advantage of technology, what they do is make it worse with new regulations and bureaucracy.
I changed my Bodart for a catalyzed Blaze King and I can tell you that from that moment on it was like night and day, you can't compare. Afterwards I bought a Pacific Energy Alderlea T4 stove for my mother and although this one is not catalyzed I can tell you that it works much better than the insert I had, there is no comparison. I was able to buy the PE in Spain from a distributor and I had to import the BK but it was worth it. I have a friend who has a Carbel 100 at home (it is one meter wide) and I can tell you that despite this it does not have a great load capacity, but also if you want to have heat in the house you are forced to burn it to the maximum because otherwise either the fans do not start or if you put them in manual mode the air does not come out hot enough. Most of the brands you mentioned are not of great build quality, and people sometimes use them too high and that is why the deflectors become deformed or have other kinds of faults. There are manufacturers in Europe with better quality but their products are close to or exceed €6,000 with the dimensions you mention, even so I insist that they are not solutions comparable to the products you can find in your country. Of course, in terms of design there are brands such as M-Design, Stuv, Spartherm or Austroflamm that you have to admit are very beautiful but do not compare them with a PE FP-30 or a Summit when it comes to heat. If you have a small place, a European insert can work with a high consumption of wood and frequent loads. As for brands and models I could advise you if you continue with that idea, just write to me. Greetings.

 

[stoveliker]

There is the Nestor Martin S43 that goes from 8500 up to 40,000 BTU/hr, taking 17" splits.
Not as big as big stoves here, but decent imo.
They are (at least) sold in The Netherlands. Given the name and the languages in the manual, I think it's sold in many countries in Europe.

https://www.haveverwarming.nl/amfile/file/download/file/425/product/184/

 

[kborndale]

Can't you get jotuls and morsos rather easily in Europe? They make stoves that can be used as primary heat sources.

 

[Dajolu]

Stuv are European with a Euro look and they are approved and sold here.

 

[stoveliker]

True (both).
Stuv stopes go up to 2 Cu ft only. Yet that's larger than e.g. a panadero.

 

[ManitobaSky]

Family has a dealership so we have a lady who can handle shipping arragements. regardless if its a wash then id likely side on the larger unit.
As far as i know we are a lot easier on emmisions stuff here in canada, we can still delete diesels at least.
and posted wrong unit on that first one

Fireplace cassette KRATKI ARKE 95 14 kW Ø 200 self closing door | Kratki

ARKE cassette is a closed fireplace type, which is installed in existing open fireplaces. Its simple and elegant look goes hand in hand with excellent heating parameters. What is more, it has a clean glass system, which along with a separate container, he

kratki.com

Emission testing is not the main issue, not having certification for Canadian installation will be an issue for insurance coverage.

 

[ctreitzell]

Hi mate, I'm Spanish and I live in Madrid and I'm going to give you my opinion. Don't invent what has already been invented, and burning wood was invented in America, end of story. I started with a Bodart & Gonay insert which is like the Mercedes in cars, nothing to do with any of the shoe boxes you mentioned, and in less than 2 years I realized that I wasn't going to be able to heat my house with wood nor was I going to earn enough money to pay for it. That said, as a sport it's good because you never stop making trips to recharge. Now, seriously, as the other forum member said, wood-burning appliances in Europe are not designed to function as main heaters but as auxiliary heaters and decorative or luxury items. Also here, unlike in Canada and the United States, most people live in apartment blocks where it's not possible to burn wood. Furthermore, the European regulations are absurd, so much so that instead of improving the manufacturing of new products by taking advantage of technology, what they do is make it worse with new regulations and bureaucracy.
I changed my Bodart for a catalyzed Blaze King and I can tell you that from that moment on it was like night and day, you can't compare. Afterwards I bought a Pacific Energy Alderlea T4 stove for my mother and although this one is not catalyzed I can tell you that it works much better than the insert I had, there is no comparison. I was able to buy the PE in Spain from a distributor and I had to import the BK but it was worth it. I have a friend who has a Carbel 100 at home (it is one meter wide) and I can tell you that despite this it does not have a great load capacity, but also if you want to have heat in the house you are forced to burn it to the maximum because otherwise either the fans do not start or if you put them in manual mode the air does not come out hot enough. Most of the brands you mentioned are not of great build quality, and people sometimes use them too high and that is why the deflectors become deformed or have other kinds of faults. There are manufacturers in Europe with better quality but their products are close to or exceed €6,000 with the dimensions you mention, even so I insist that they are not solutions comparable to the products you can find in your country. Of course, in terms of design there are brands such as M-Design, Stuv, Spartherm or Austroflamm that you have to admit are very beautiful but do not compare them with a PE FP-30 or a Summit when it comes to heat. If you have a small place, a European insert can work with a high consumption of wood and frequent loads. As for brands and models I could advise you if you continue with that idea, just write to me. Greetings.

A great post! Thanks for this :-D

 

[ctreitzell]

There is the Nestor Martin S43 that goes from 8500 up to 40,000 BTU/hr, taking 17" splits.
Not as big as big stoves here, but decent imo.
They are (at least) sold in The Netherlands. Given the name and the languages in the manual, I think it's sold in many countries in Europe.

https://www.haveverwarming.nl/amfile/file/download/file/425/product/184/

Ok…I’m reading the manual…I don’t (so far) see any adherence to EcoDesign202x…I will look deeper

It is interesting to see the horizontal runs outlined in the installation portion of this manual

I suspect this appliance was released before 2022…I will dig deeper

Thanks for sharing this

 

[ctreitzell]

Can't you get jotuls and morsos rather easily in Europe? They make stoves that can be used as primary heat sources.

Yes, they are available in France…BUT, larger fireboxes have been disallowed here…at least when I went to Pellerot sales/ install in Le Mans last year. Jotul F500 had just been taken off the shelves IIRC, F400 was the largest firebox of Jotuls allowed at that time.

Again, the EcoDesign202x regulations have been amended and I have yet to read them…

 

[ctreitzell]

True (both).
Stuv stopes go up to 2 Cu ft only. Yet that's larger than e.g. a panadero.

There are much larger Panadero offerings than my little Delice/ Dover

 

[ctreitzell]

Emission testing is not the main issue, not having certification for Canadian installation will be an issue for insurance coverage.

Here we are

Again, my “existing flue” is covered by my insurance as is the old Esse that was existing when I bought this barn conversion. Hey, don’t get me wrong…I bet many of you are driving vehicles which cost more than I paid for this place!

The Panadero is a massive amount more efficient than the old Esse !

 

[stoveliker]

I'v ealways wondered about your assertion that bigger stoves were outlawed.

I cannot find anything about size limitations in ecodesign 20x, only requirements regarding efficiencies (75%) and emissions.

https://www.ieabioenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/IEA-Bioenergy-Task-32_Report-D1-2_Low-emission-wood-stove-design_final.pdf

for the UK (same ecodesign20x though):

Ecodesign Stoves Explained

waterfordstanley.com

Ecodesign Regulation & implications - Stove Industry Association | SIA

stoveindustryassociation.org

Though it's hard to find info in France (for me).

 

[ctreitzell]

I'v ealways wondered about your assertion that bigger stoves were outlawed.

I cannot find anything about size limitations in ecodesign 20x, only requirements regarding efficiencies (75%) and emissions.

https://www.ieabioenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/IEA-Bioenergy-Task-32_Report-D1-2_Low-emission-wood-stove-design_final.pdf

for the UK (same ecodesign20x though):

Ecodesign Stoves Explained

waterfordstanley.com

Ecodesign Regulation & implications - Stove Industry Association | SIA

stoveindustryassociation.org

Though it's hard to find info in France (for me).

The lady at Pellerot told me big fireboxes were finished in France due to EcoDesign2022

There is also the instructions on using the “appliances”…I found user manuals giving exactly the same instructions like I have said here before.

I’m happy to be wrong!

***edit
Uh, OK, I believe I posted some links to that Stove Industry site last year. You should realize that English culture is quite defiant towards authority and regs…France has much more red tape…

 

[stoveliker]

But there is nothing of the sort in the rules.
While I get that efficiency requirements may effectively rule out certain stoves, I believe that is not necessarily the case for stoves of a larger size - see the US tax credit requirements; same 75% HHV efficiency.
And bigger stoves do meet this.

US EPA requirements are about emissions, just like ecodesign 202x. And this makes perfect sensefor a regulation aimed at cleaning up the air. Firebox size has nothing to do with that in first order.

I suggest the lady might have been ill informed.