Whats the deal with Napoleon and Country Flame Stoves?

[vtburner]

I just have to know... does anyone know what the deal with the Napoleon Vortex Series and the Country Flame Ovation Series is? They are like the same stove but for a few minor tweaks (and one major tweak, being that the Country Flame has 1/4" steel for the whole firebox and the Napoleon has a very thin 1/8"or less actual firebox w/ a thick 1/4" or 5/16" top)

I know a lot of stoves have a lot in common, but these things are uncanny. Not to mention there are a lot of features on them that I haven't seen anywhere else. Specifically:

-Both have the same unique style re-burn, that I have only seen on these stoves (one single large perferated tube/channel running n/s, complete with a stainless steel guard/shroud protecting the main air tube)
-They have the same airwash system, and the air channels are in the same spots on both stoves, both for the primary air and the secondary air.
-Both have a unique spring-loaded ash dump trap door that I have only seen on these 2 stoves, operated by an external handle. The ash dump hole is in the exact same spot as well, right and forward of the center of the firebox.
-Both have the same air control system, with the lever sticking out the front operating both the primary and secondary air by pulling out or pushing in
-Both have a similiar looking shroud/convection system on the outside, complete with louvered top and grates cut into the top of the sides

I normally wouldnt be so curious with something like this, but dealer (who sells only these 2 brands of wood stoves) called me today with some pricing, and I mentioned the similarities to him and he was absolutely perplexed; Said he had never really noticed... I asked if they were ever owned by the same company or something, and he insisted no, completely seperate, and Napoleon mfgs in Canada and CF somewhere in Minnesota he said... More disconcerting though, he also said that its likely Napoleon just copied Country Flame's design, since country Flame (AES) was around first. (of course, that coming from the guy who should be an expert but never noticed they were so similiar...)

I'm thinkin maybe they have a chief engineer in common like a lot of the downdraft stoves do? I know its not all that important, but again, just curious...



EDIT: thought some links might be helpful:
(broken link removed to http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/Stoves/stoves_wood/1900.html)
(broken link removed to http://www.americanenergysystems.com/ovation-3000.cfm)

 

[Dirtgrain]

I know some brands are owned by the same parent company (Lopi and Avalon; Regency and Hampton; Drolet, Enerzone and Osburn). Maybe this is also true of the Napoleon and Country Flame.

 

[vtburner]

That was my original thought, but the dealer insisted they are seperate companies and my subsequent google research has turned up no common corporate link.

 

[Dirtgrain]

Yah, I did a quick check after posting. The Hearth Wiki has an entry for American Energy Systems. It says their primary product lines are Magnum and Countryside.

 

[vtburner]

Yep no relation. I have all but decided on going with the napoleon on the basis that there is some noteworthy positive treads/reviews of them on this site, and they have a ton of unique features that I Love, but still I am curious about the country flame stoves. There seems to be almost no chatter about them on the site...

The thing that gets me is that the only difference (besides some light cosmetics) is that the Country Flame stoves claim to have a 1/4" firebox. The Napoleon I looked over at the dealer appeared to have extremely thin firebox steel, looked like about 1/8" at most. Anyone think this is a red flag on the Napoleon? Anyone have trouble with the Napoleon in this regard? The Dealer quoted $100 price difference between Napoleon 1900 and Country Flame 3000, with the Country Flame being more...

 

[BrotherBart]

The stove body on the Nap stoves is 3/16" inch steel much as most of the stoves on the market today. Thicker steel is always better but most stoves are designed with CAD systems these days to reinforce areas of possible warping. Typically the secondary air manifolds and brick retainers do that job. For the top plate most use 5/16" steel for flat top stoves and 1/4" for step top stoves since the bend in the step top provides structural rigidity to resist warping. A couple of exceptions are the CFM and Vogelzang stoves that use 3/16" top plates but with a step bend.

All said and done, ain't nothin beats big thick steel but there isn't a lot of it around in competitively priced stoves anymore.

 

[EKLawton]

Yep no relation. I have all but decided on going with the napoleon on the basis that there is some noteworthy positive treads/reviews of them on this site, and they have a ton of unique features that I Love, but still I am curious about the country flame stoves. There seems to be almost no chatter about them on the site...

The thing that gets me is that the only difference (besides some light cosmetics) is that the Country Flame stoves claim to have a 1/4" firebox. The Napoleon I looked over at the dealer appeared to have extremely thin firebox steel, looked like about 1/8" at most. Anyone think this is a red flag on the Napoleon? Anyone have trouble with the Napoleon in this regard? The Dealer quoted $100 price difference between Napoleon 1900 and Country Flame 3000, with the Country Flame being more...

I just got the napoleon 1900, had an old englander cat "ceasote factory from day one". I like the way the nap works. found out 2 guys I work with have the same stove and they like it to..

 

[i3bpvh]

when I was looking at inserts, I looked at the naps. My shop owner told me that even though nap and country flame are not owned by the same company, they both lease the same patent for their "burn technology" from the same company. Not sure how much stock I'd put into this answer, but that's what the man said.

 

[Rickochet]

I have been very happy with our Napoleon 1900. This is our second season with it and our wood consumption is about half of what it was with the previous stove.

 

[Joey]

I'm throwin my hat in for the Napoleon also...been really happy with it so far. Took a few months to figure out how to run it properly,,buts it purrin just fine. Just gotta figure out how to get a bit of a longer burn time during the night. Gettin about 7 solid hours,,,my chimney is extremely high,,think I gotta ad a damper to get it just right. Good luck on your search.

 

[vtburner]

when I was looking at inserts, I looked at the naps. My shop owner told me that even though nap and country flame are not owned by the same company, they both lease the same patent for their "burn technology" from the same company. Not sure how much stock I'd put into this answer, but that's what the man said.

Excellent answer. I hadn't even considered the idea of a patent lease, but it does make perfect sense...

Thanks also to all the Napoleon users who have chimed in with their experiences. I am pretty sure, after exhaustive reseach, that the Napoleon 1900 will be my next stove. I was tempted to consider the Country Flame for its heavy duty firebox, but as BrotherBart pointed out, you don't necessarily need thick plate steel with the way modern stoves are engineered. I also couldn't find squat for reviews, user opinions/experiences, or other objective or subjective consumer-side information on the Country Flames. Having a community of owners backing up the stove I buy is extremely important to me, and the napoleons definitely seem to have that over most of the other lower-priced stoves out there. (obviously with the exception of the NC-30, which is apparently a bonafide favorite around here)

 

[vtburner]

Also, I figured this would go just fine in this thread: I wanted to just point out the differentiation factors that brought me back to the napoleon after such a long and exhaustive research process. I started this thread originally because I noticed a lot of the features I liked about the napoleon showed up in the Country Flame, and was just curious as to why, but in the end with the response from napoleon users, I just decided to forget Country Flame.

So anyway, what I love about the napoleon:

-The Numbers: all the specs are very very good; large firebox, long burn times (12+ hrs), high BTU, High efficiency (78%+ I believe)

-The Ash Dump - Unique spring loaded ash dump trap door instead of plug(which i decided long ago I would go sans-ashdrawer before I bought a stove with an ash plug), or grates (Which then require a fully sealed ash drawer, which means more gaskets and more places for air leakage to develop)

-The Air Control: The one lever in front not only controls the primary air, but also adjusts the secondary air intake at the same time, keeping both air supplies (supposedly) in proper proportion for better performance. seems like many other stoves have adjustable primary air, but fixed secondary air.

-Adjustable Primary Air intake - supposedly you can adjust the primary air restrictor plate, which will be great for tinkering and/or getting the stove to shut down better if there is too much draft. I guess it's a pain to get at the adjustment though, and I don't know if I'll even mess with it, but it is freakin' nice to have the option.

-THE LOOKS - To me, it is a very sharp looking steel stove; much better looking than the basic plate steel boxes that dominate many of the other brands.

-Highly Convective Design - Full side, rear & top Convection Shrouds for moving air around. Very important to me since I am gonna be trying to heat the whole house and don't want to be cooked out of the room its in. I know some people may prefer a more radiant design but this is a HUGE plus for me... There is an $80 option for a cooktop insert that goes where the top trivet is, so you can have a cooktop AND STILL keep all that convection. Love it, best of both worlds.

-Vortex Reburn System seems like a great concept to me. 2-peice top baffle also seems well engineered and looks like it would be way more effective at creating turbulence/circulation for effective reburning than a lot of other stove's basic flat top baffles (you'd have to look one over to see what I mean on this one). The whole reburn system just seems better thought out than the stoves that just slap burn tubes in the flat top of the stove. (pure feeling/opinion/speculation here, I'm no combustion engineer

-PRICE - Perfect compromise on price - almost directly in the middle of super-brand-named stoves like PE, QuadraFire, Harmon, Jotul, etc, and super-bargian-brand stoves like Drolet, Englander, Vogelzang, etc. I have been Quoted ~$1525 for a full flat black setup (without the blower though). Waiting on 2nd quote from another shop. Really makes you feel like you are getting a quality stove but aren't paying too much just for a brand stamp.

I'll be pulling the trigger soon, so last minute opinions are welcome. I also hope that this information will help others looking for a new stove consider the napoleon closely. I had overlooked it entirely for about two months while I was researching the more expensive brands, before I came back to it way more educated and discovered all these fantastic features.


EDIT: Decided to just put this in a new thread, so's people don't have to wade through my Country Flame Inquiry to find the information on the Napoleons.

 

[IMPERIAL500]

If theres only a $100 difference between the two stoves why would you not get stove with the thicker firebox thats made in the usa not Canada. I have a Country Flame 2100 and think it very well built. Country flame dealer in Dannemora, NY near Plattsburgh (518)492-2346

 

[Chargerman]

FWIW: I don't have a Country Flame Ovation series but I do have a BBF and I am more than happy with it's quality and performance.

 

[ControlFreak]

The stove body on the Nap stoves is 3/16" inch steel much as most of the stoves on the market today. Thicker steel is always better but most stoves are designed with CAD systems these days to reinforce areas of possible warping. Typically the secondary air manifolds and brick retainers do that job. For the top plate most use 5/16" steel for flat top stoves and 1/4" for step top stoves since the bend in the step top provides structural rigidity to resist warping. A couple of exceptions are the CFM and Vogelzang stoves that use 3/16" top plates but with a step bend.

All said and done, ain't nothin beats big thick steel but there isn't a lot of it around in competitively priced stoves anymore.

FWIW: If you look very closely at the inside of the top of a Napoleon 1402, you'll notice that the steel that is cut out for the door opening gets welded onto the inside of the top plate, creating a laminated top surface that's .4375" thick. You'll even see the little cutout for the latch on that plate welded in there. They probably do the same thing with the 1900. I have measured the steel vertical parts on my stove to be 3/16".

I have also heard that Wolf Steel, the maker of Napoleon, licenses the combustion technology, which I believe is much superior to the standard burn tubes which simply blow the secondary forward and out. The Napoleon secondary blows to the sides creating a continuous mixing of the gasses and abundant opportunity for them to be ignited before making their way out the top at the front. I have no data to prove that, just my own sense after using it for many years, and from observing the more common burn tube stoves.