Whitfield Profile 30- Smell smoke, can't find leak

[wiseguy6285]

My Whitfield Profile 30 is giving off a very prominent smoke smell while it's running. The pipe is brand new 3" duravent piping that I installed and I've hit every joint and seam of the pipe with high temp RTV. Initially I found leaks all over the pipe using the flashlight method, but at this point there is not one bit of visible smoke on startup or running at all. The stove is in my basement and after about 15 minutes of running I can stand at the top of the stairs and smell exhaust, I have 2 CO/fire detectors in my 900 sq.ft basement that have not gone off, but the smell is strong enough that my wife screams at me to shut the stove off. I've done the door gasket test with a dollar bill, I've spent the past five nights laying on my back with a flashlight during startup and while running to check for smoke, I've siliconed the entire pipe at every joint, I've removed the combustion fan and checked for a blockage, I've removed the firebrick and all trap doors and vacuumed the every bit of ash from the stove, I checked the glassdoor gasket and ash pan (mine has no rope gasket, which I believe is normal for this model), I've secured the appliance adapter to the back of the stove with RTV on the inside and out and secured it with an automotive hose clamp... I feel like I've done everything. I don't smell exhaust from the blower tubes or in front of the stove, I smell smoke at the rear base of the stove and up in the rafters if I stand on a chair, the smell travels to the room directly above the stove while we sleep. I CAN'T SEE SMOKE! I'm an automotive technician so I was going to plug the exhaust and use my Evaporative Smoke machine to smoke the entire pipe/stove. I'm running out of ideas as to what could be causing the smell and i'm definitely running out diagnostic procedures... need help.

Also, I've sealed the wall thimble completely and checked for smoke where the pipe exits...nothing!

Thanks, Dan

 

[Cedarjunki]

Possibly the combustion damper?

 

[wiseguy6285]

The damper is actually behind the side panel and is supposed to be factory set, I did however adjust it both IN and OUT and let the stove run for awhile to see if it changed but it didn't'. The position it's in right now is actually good, the flame burns great and at start up there is little to no smoke in the combustion chamber (self igniting stove).

 

[Cedarjunki]

Im talking more in line of a very slight amount of smoke escaping thru the damper. No clue how the whit is designed or if there is any gasket or anything on the damper.. but being so close to the combustion motor, if is has the extra motor cooling fan any smoke will be whisked up and dispersed fairly quickly unnoticeable

 

[wiseguy6285]

Im talking more in line of a very slight amount of smoke escaping thru the damper. No clue how the whit is designed or if there is any gasket or anything on the damper.. but being so close to the combustion motor, if is has the extra motor cooling fan any smoke will be whisked up and dispersed fairly quickly unnoticeable

True... I understand what you're saying. Unfortunately for me, this is my first Whitfield stove and I bought it from Craigslist... it was barely used. I'm thinking I inherited someone else's problem that they were experiencing.

 

[Cedarjunki]

True... I understand what you're saying. Unfortunately for me, this is my first Whitfield stove and I bought it from Craigslist... it was barely used. I'm thinking I inherited someone else's problem that they were experiencing.

Others have mentioned using smoke tablets or whatever they are called to. From stove shops. Light one off in the stove when off and find any leaks.

 

[Bioburner]

I would start by taping all the pipe joints with silicone self bonding tape and a liberal amount of silicone on the pipe adapter. Duraleak pipe is a PIA to get it to seal with just silicone goop.
The slide damper is inboard of the exhaust fan so that should not leak smoke out but be under vacuum.

 

[Don2222]

Hello
It is common for the bolts that hold the exhaust flange onto the exhaust housing to become loose and leak smoke. Sometimes I have to use larger self tappers and reseal the flange by removing it completely and cleaning off all the old silicone with a wire brush.

 

[wiseguy6285]

Hello
It is common for the bolts that hold the exhaust flange onto the exhaust housing to become loose and leak smoke. Sometimes I have to use larger self tappers and reseal the flange by removing it completely and cleaning off all the old silicone with a wire brush.

Thanks for the reply, when you say flange are you referring to the adapter piece that mounts to the actual exhaust blower? If so, that piece is siliconed (heavy amounts) and instead of self tapping the piece I used a nice 3 inch hose clamp... I haven't seen any smoke from that location since I installed. Any other ideas? Thanks everyone!

 

[wiseguy6285]

I would start by taping all the pipe joints with silicone self bonding tape and a liberal amount of silicone on the pipe adapter. Duraleak pipe is a PIA to get it to seal with just silicone goop.
The slide damper is inboard of the exhaust fan so that should not leak smoke out but be under vacuum.

I've contemplated the tape idea.... I will have to give that a try. Very frustrating

 

[Stovensen]

Could it be smoke from outside getting sucked in through cracks in doors and windows? Ok, if your stove is vented through a chimney on top of the house, we can probably rule this out, when the weather is calm, but if the vent/chimney is placed on the side of the house, the smoke certainly could find its way through small cracks in the doors and windows. Also, all the hot air from the stove in the basement has to be replaced with cold air from the upper area. I guess this will create a negative pressure in the basement. When walking around your house, is it possible to monitor the direction of the smoke?

These are my own experiences with smoke around the house:

When the wind is strong here ( storm ) and coming from the NE, there is a faint smell of smoke entering through the windows. Ok, our house is old and not very tight compared to modern standards, but our stoves are vented through a 60 feet masonry chimney with a huge natural draft, so you should expect the smoke to be let away from the house in proper distance. Normally it does, but not when it is storming from NE.
See pic of our chimney:

 

[Bioburner]

We had another stove owner give up on a stove because the wind was always pushing the smoke into the house vents

 

[wiseguy6285]

Could it be smoke from outside getting sucked in through cracks in doors and windows? Ok, if your stove is vented through a chimney on top of the house, we can probably rule this out, when the weather is calm, but if the vent/chimney is placed on the side of the house, the smoke certainly could find its way through small cracks in the doors and windows. Also, all the hot air from the stove in the basement has to be replaced with cold air from the upper area. I guess this will create a negative pressure in the basement. When walking around your house, is it possible to monitor the direction of the smoke?

These are my own experiences with smoke around the house:

When the wind is strong here ( storm ) and coming from the NE, there is a faint smell of smoke entering through the windows. Ok, our house is old and not very tight compared to modern standards, but our stoves are vented through a 60 feet masonry chimney with a huge natural draft, so you should expect the smoke to be let away from the house in proper distance. Normally it does, but not when it is storming from NE.
See pic of our chimney:
View attachment 175025

Stovensen, you bring up alot of good points here. At first I was experiencing smoke coming back into the house via small cracks in the window where my pipe exited. This past weekend I caulked the inside and outside windows and I can no longer feel a cold draft or smell smoke in the cracks. My pipe comes out the back of the stove into a "T", then goes vertical about 5 feet, then does a 90 elbow straight out the window horizontal for about 3 feet. The pipe exits my basement window to the side yard, so it's parallel to the ground. My pipe doesn't continue vertical to the roof line... you think that could be an issue? Also, out here in CT we just had -15 temperatures for like 3 days straight so the cold air is probably very heavy!

Are you referring to an OAK for the fresh air intake? My understanding was that this was necessary on most newer houses that are tightly sealed. My house was built in 1953 and I have plenty of drafts coming from my back door that leads outside. Also, I have a woodstove upstairs on the opposite end of the house that is running 24/7... do you think the wood stove could be pulling that kind of pressure from the basement? My house is extremely small 980 Sq ft.

 

[wiseguy6285]

We had another stove owner give up on a stove because the wind was always pushing the smoke into the house vents

My stove pipe exits to ground level outside... wondering if I should buy more pipe and direct it further away from the house? My wife has put the Kabash on the stove and doesn't want me vesting any more time or money into it haha, I love working on it though. I won't give up on the stove until I find the answer!

 

[Chrisnow86]

i believe your stove has tubes at the top of the fire box for the heat exchange, did you check them to make sure they are tight? I've seen the issue of those getting loose and can leak

 

[wiseguy6285]

i believe your stove has tubes at the top of the fire box for the heat exchange, did you check them to make sure they are tight? I've seen the issue of those getting loose and can leak

There are tubes yes, I haven't not checked them for looseness but I definitely will... I'm guessing if they are loose its game over for this thing right? How are you supposed to access those when they're practically encased in the stove? Thanks.

 

[Chrisnow86]

I remember seeing someone on here that had the issue of the tubes being loose inside the fire box.. I've never seen it first hand so I'm not much help there.. Just a thought.

 

[Stovensen]

I remember seeing someone on here that had the issue of the tubes being loose inside the fire box.. I've never seen it first hand so I'm not much help there.. Just a thought.

That was a Quad CB1200i. A very serious issue if this happens in a pellet stove. The thread can be read here with pictures of the loose exchanger tubes:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/heat-exchanger-tubes-keep-falling-down.138769/

I have never ever heard or read about loose exchanger tubes in a Whitfield stove.

 

[Bioburner]

Santa Fe has tube issues as well with aluminum

 

[Tim_M]

I had a Profile 30 insert up until last year when I traded it for my Accentra. Those heat exchange tubes are welded in place so I don't think there's any way they could come loose. But if one somehow developed a hole that could explain your smoke smell. Seems unlikely though, especially on a little used stove. And I think you said you weren't smelling smoke in that area, only at the bottom rear. My Profile 30 insert had a flange that bolted the stove to the T-adapter to allow the stove to be disconnected and pulled out for cleaning. There was a gasket where the 2 pieces bolted together. I don't know if yours has this same flange but if so I would check the gasket closely.

 

[Chrisnow86]

Well like I said just a thought...

 

[Stovensen]

Are you referring to an OAK for the fresh air intake? My understanding was that this was necessary on most newer houses that are tightly sealed. My house was built in 1953 and I have plenty of drafts coming from my back door that leads outside. Also, I have a woodstove upstairs on the opposite end of the house that is running 24/7... do you think the wood stove could be pulling that kind of pressure from the basement? My house is extremely small 980 Sq ft.

This Canadian web page gives a very good overview of what causes the air flow in a house.
http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/effic...eeping-the-heat-in/how-your-house-works/15630

So we have these three factors:

• Wind Effect
• Stack Effect
• Combustion and Ventilation Effect

Dan, since you have wood heaters on several floors, I'm convinced that the combined stack effect of these two stoves will create enough negative pressure to suck smoke in to your house from outside. And as stated on the Canadian web site, the stack effect increases with larger differences between inside and outside temps.
In addition to the stack effect you have the combustion effect from both stoves. Also, the ventilation effect from an extractor hood in the kitchen is quite powerful.
Worst case scenario would be on a very cold day, with storm coming from the same side as your vent, both stoves running and the extractor hood in the kitchen on highest setting.
The older Whitfield stoves are not really OAK-ready, so installing this won't decrease the combustion effect very much and the stack effect is clearly the most powerful effect as I see it.
Maybe a taller chimney, as you suggest, would be the most effective way to lead the smoke away from the house? As compared to sealing the entire house

Good luck and take care. Keep us posted.

 

[Don2222]

Thanks for the reply, when you say flange are you referring to the adapter piece that mounts to the actual exhaust blower? If so, that piece is siliconed (heavy amounts) and instead of self tapping the piece I used a nice 3 inch hose clamp... I haven't seen any smoke from that location since I installed. Any other ideas? Thanks everyone!

Hello

I mean the piece that connects to the stove adapter on the outside of the stove and the exhaust blower housing on the inside of the stove. That is where it was leaking in the inside old stove in the pics below. The screws in pic 1 became loose and broke the silicone seal.
In pic 1 below the flange was loose so I removed the venting and then removed the flange and cleaned up the old orange silicone with a wire wheel, then put in new clear silicone and new larger screws.
On the outside I recommend high temp foil tape under the radiator clamp on the stove adapter (appliance adapter) that connects to the back of the stove.

Hope that is clear.

Click pics below to Enlarge and see Red Arrows
Pic 1 - Exhaust flange with self tappers and clear silicone high temp RTV sealant
Pic 2 - Stove adapter radiator clamp with high temp foil tape under to completely seal exhaust venting to stove

 

[wiseguy6285]

Hello

I mean the piece that connects to the stove adapter on the outside of the stove and the exhaust blower housing on the inside of the stove. That is where it was leaking in the inside old stove in the pics below. The screws in pic 1 became loose and broke the silicone seal.
In pic 1 below the flange was loose so I removed the venting and then removed the flange and cleaned up the old orange silicone with a wire wheel, then put in new clear silicone and new larger screws.
On the outside I recommend high temp foil tape under the radiator clamp on the stove adapter (appliance adapter) that connects to the back of the stove.

Hope that is clear.

Click pics below to Enlarge and see Red Arrows
Pic 1 - Exhaust flange with self tappers and clear silicone high temp RTV sealant
Pic 2 - Stove adapter radiator clamp with high temp foil tape under to completely seal exhaust venting to stove

Awesome information Going to do all this on Friday night. Everyone else, I appreciate your feedback and will get back to you with the results. Thanks again! Dan

 

[wiseguy6285]

This Canadian web page gives a very good overview of what causes the air flow in a house.
http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/effic...eeping-the-heat-in/how-your-house-works/15630

So we have these three factors:

• Wind Effect
• Stack Effect
• Combustion and Ventilation Effect

View attachment 175051
Dan, since you have wood heaters on several floors, I'm convinced that the combined stack effect of these two stoves will create enough negative pressure to suck smoke in to your house from outside. And as stated on the Canadian web site, the stack effect increaes with larger differences between inside and outside temps.
In addition to the stack effect you have the combustion effect from both stoves. Also, the ventilation effect from an extractor hood in the kitchen is quite powerful.
Worst case scenario would be on a very cold day, with storm coming from the same side as your vent, both stoves running and the extractor hood in the kitchen on highest setting.
The older Whitfield stoves are not really OAK-ready, so installing this won't decrease the combustion effect very much and the stack effect is clearly the most powerful effect as I see it.
Maybe a taller chimney, as you suggest, would be the most effective way to lead the smoke away from the house? As compared to sealing the entire house

Good luck and take care. Keep us posted.

You are probably right, this weekend I'm going to run only the pellet stove after making a few corrections that other users have mentioned. I will get back to you with results. Thanks!