Whitfield Quest with Odd Start Up Behavior

[Enumclaw]

Hey Folks -

Believe this is my first post, but I have done a lot of searching and reading around here, great place!

So it is odd to me anyway.

I picked up this stove late last season; it is the original Quest model. I did a thorough maintenance routine after I got it and before installing it. I also have an Advantage II-T, so am not all new to the pellet stove world. This Quest is for my wife's detached office space. The stove worked pretty well for a while, then became rather inconsistent, most notable on start up.

Sometimes pushing the start button only powers up the convection fan; the auger and combustion fan do not operate. This is after attempting to activate the auger. The auger power light will illuminate, but the auger does not turn, and the combustion fan blades do not either. When I first realized this was happening, I removed the combustion fan and cleaned it extremely well. The shaft rotated freely and all, and upon reinstallation it worked okay for a while. Then this behavior began occurring again.

Oddly, I discovered if I "nudged" the fan blades to turn, the auger would start doing it's thing, and the fan would spin up to full speed. Also, at times after pushing the start button, a period of 60 seconds or more will pass and the combustion fan will spin up on it's own, and the auger will start. This is in no way consistent behavior.

As it's getting to be that time of year, I am getting both stoves ready to go. Tonight I went to start the Quest, and again the combustion fan/auger did not turn. I decided to bypass the low limit switch and try it again. This time everything started up immediately upon plugging the stove back in. Not a surprise after reading the service manual and looking at the diagram. So it seems like the switch should be replaced.

However, I do not understand the nudging the fan blades and everything spins up thing. Kind of points to the fan motor, but if someone can explain how nudging that makes it all work that would be great.

As just about any little part of these things is kind of spendy, I'd surely appreciate some experienced input before I throw money at it.

Thanks for staying with me on this post, sorry for the length!

Rob

 

[imacman]

Motor bearings are getting worn & dirty. You could try spraying some WD40 on them to try cleaning them out, and then some light oil. If that doesn't work, I suggest a new motor.

BTW, you do realize that since the comb. fan doesn't turn, there is no vacuum to close the vacuum switch and allow the auger to run.

 

[Enumclaw]

BTW, you do realize that since the comb. fan doesn't turn, there is no vacuum to close the vacuum switch and allow the auger to run.

Ah! Light bulb goes on! So obvious when it's pointed out......

Thanks. Yeah, I'll try cleaning the motor up once more, and likely look for a replacement. Best supplier suggestions?

 

[imacman]

Best bet is to get info off the existing motor, but there's some places that you can try:

(broken link removed to http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/index.html)

(broken link removed to http://www.cshincorporated.com/index.php/cPath/109)

http://www.stove-parts.net/Whitfield_Parts_s/21.htm?searching=Y&sort=13&cat=21&show=10&page=4

 

[Stovensen]

However, I do not understand the nudging the fan blades and everything spins up thing. Kind of points to the fan motor, but if someone can explain how nudging that makes it all work that would be great.

Rob

It could also be an unstable electrical connection somewhere, which is probably why the nudging ' repairs ' it now and then.
So Rob, before condemning your combustion blower and spending $170 on a new one, the voltage fed to the blower ( while stove is running ) should be measured. On page 12 in the service manual it is described how to do this, but if you're not used to work on potentially lethal voltages, please let a more skilled person do this. You will also need a voltmeter.
If the applied voltage to the blower motor follows the erratic behaviour of the motor, then the motor is NOT the culprit. If this is the case I would examine the wiring and the connectors thoroughly ( partly broken wire or corroded/damaged connector ).

A faulty low limit switch should not cause any confusion in the troubleshooting, well, at least not at start up, since it is bypassed for ca. 30 minutes by a relay controlled by a timing circuit.

Good luck and take care!

 

[stellep]

Here is how I fixed this exact problem on my Quest. Pull the two rubber oil plugs on the top of the exhaust motor. Add one(1) drop of oil in each plug. Replace plugs. Use the stove. After I had this problem for several months, this fixed it. Never had another problem. No new motor. Now I do the single drop every fall. Almost time now. Whitfield says to use the super turbine oil or something like that, I only had Mobil1 5-30. YMMV. Beware the WD40.
BTW, I did this fix several years ago.

 

[imacman]

Here is how I fixed this exact problem on my Quest. Pull the two rubber oil plugs on the top of the exhaust motor. Add one(1) drop of oil in each plug. Replace plugs. Use the stove. After I had this problem for several months, this fixed it. Never had another problem. No new motor. Now I do the single drop every fall. Almost time now. Whitfield says to use the super turbine oil or something like that, I only had Mobil1 5-30. YMMV. Beware the WD40.
BTW, I did this fix several years ago.

The recommended oil is 20w regular NON DETERGENT oil....meaning not motor oil that goes in a gas engine. Better alternative is regular 3 in 1, and even better is the 3 in 1 in the blue can....it's made for electric motors. And personally, I always go with 2 drops....haven't had a motor go bad yet.

www.3inone.com/products/motor-oil/

 

[smwilliamson]

All whitfields use a vac switch that is NC looking for back pressure to open it. Combustion motor and auger not feeding are different issues here. Combustion motor is getting tired. A resistance reading should be taken against the nameplate on the motor and see where it falls. Guessing slightly out of range. I would look at the auger bushing in that thing too I'm sure it's seen better days. Either way, each is a separate issue presenting themselves together.

 

[Pellet-King]

both very common problem areas with whit's combustion motor is tired, replace and the auger also could have the infamous worn washer dropping the shaft away from the internal gears, I too had to "kickstart" my combustion blower.
also any clog in your exhaust and a dirty stove could casue the pressure switch to not operate the auger
look here, great site for whitfield owners
http://www.butkus.org/whitfield_pellet_stove.htm

 

[Enumclaw]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I replaced the auger bushing last year, as that was definitely a problem. I believe at that time I also verified voltage getting to the motor, but the memory, she fades. Haven't done the resistance check yet, the stove has been running for the last few days without issue. I have put a drop or two of oil in the lube spots last spring. Note that this is an on again/off again problem, mostly on again toward the end of last season. I am going to turn it off by Saturday and do a full cleaning on the stove and duct work, and will do the resistance checks at that time. Also, check the voltage to the motor at start up.

It looks like a replacement motor and housing can be had for around $90 from the links imacman posted above (thanks!). Slightly different specs than the one that's on there now but not a big deal. The Whitfield pn maps to A082 at the Fasco site, and it looks like there are a number sources out there.

Thanks again, I'll let you all know the eventual solution.

 

[stellep]

The recommended oil is 20w regular NON DETERGENT oil....meaning not motor oil that goes in a gas engine. Better alternative is regular 3 in 1, and even better is the 3 in 1 in the blue can....it's made for electric motors. And personally, I always go with 2 drops....haven't had a motor go bad yet.

www.3inone.com/products/motor-oil/

Actually Fasco (the motor manufacturer) recommends Anderol only, which is a synthetic turbine oil. In fact, that's what it says on the motor in my stove. No dino please. I didn't have the Ander(Unobtainium 5 years ago), so I used Mobil 1 which the only synthetic oil I had access to. I used 3 drops, against the Whitfield warning that more than a drop was too much.
Naturally, the overflow ran out over the bottom of the motor, into the bottom of the stove. So, I backed off to the Whitfield one drop recommendation for later years. No more leaks.
That was five years or so ago. This is the 16th season for the original motor. YMMV Oil on.

Hey, and as I recall, 3 in 1 has a solvent(detergent) in it too.

Good discussion guys.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Actually Fasco (the motor manufacturer) recommends Anderol only, which is a synthetic turbine oil. In fact, that's what it says on the motor in my stove. No dino please. I didn't have the Ander(Unobtainium 5 years ago), so I used Mobil 1 which the only synthetic oil I had access to. I used 3 drops, against the Whitfield warning that more than a drop was too much.
Naturally, the overflow ran out over the bottom of the motor, into the bottom of the stove. So, I backed off to the Whitfield one drop recommendation for later years. No more leaks.
That was five years or so ago. This is the 16th season for the original motor. YMMV Oil on.

Hey, and as I recall, 3 in 1 has a solvent(detergent) in it too.

Good discussion guys.

stellep,

You done right.

Always use what is on the motor plate.

As for the 3 in 1 it depends upon which one you buy as to weather it has any detergent in it.

 

[imacman]

.....Hey, and as I recall, 3 in 1 has a solvent(detergent) in it too.

It will do in a pinch, as it IS 20w, but that is why they make the Blue can version, which is specifically for electric motors.

 

[stellep]

It will do in a pinch, as it IS 20w, but that is why they make the Blue can version, which is specifically for electric motors.

I have the 20W Blue 3in1 still unopened. So, I did consider going that route. But my choice was between dino 3in1 Blue or synth Mobil 1 detergent. For me, synth wins even with the detergent part and the viscosity and I stuck with it. YMMV.

 

[Enumclaw]

Well, the resistance is in spec, and there are steady volts getting to the motor. I cleaned everything up real well tonight, and yet it does seem to take more time than it should to start spinning the blades, then the auger kicks in. It is running right now, and I will just have to see how long it will be happy. Thanks again for the tips and info.

 

[imacman]

Keep us informed whether you "saved" it, or have to have it replaced.

 

[Enumclaw]

Keep us informed whether you "saved" it, or have to have it replaced.

Well, nearly a month later and so far, so good. Been running on low almost continuously, except for cleaning; hope this doesn't jinx me!

 

[Bioburner]

Its not really that cold yet. You won't activate the jinx till its another 20 degrees colder. Good luck

 

[Enumclaw]

Its not really that cold yet. You won't activate the jinx till its another 20 degrees colder. Good luck

Well, it is cold now! And it is still running okay, though it is not kicking out the heat it should be. Cannot get the auger feed rate much off minimum before the pellets start backing up, and this is with the fan setting on high as well as the damper wide open. I have more work to do.....

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

That sounds like the old crud in the works. Some time spent with devices of torture through the stove exhaust channels behind the firebox walls and up over head.

Ash traps and above. Liberal use of high air flow as in compressor or leaf blower vacuum attachments.

Sometimes even a hammer against a piece of wood against the firebox, do not do this if your firebox is made of cast, as hitting against cast is a fast and easy way to destroy it (this is how old cast steam lines are removed from buildings, the joints are sharply hit several times fast and they just pop apart in pieces).

 

[stellep]

+1 Smokey. Dirty exhaust or the exhaust motor is still compromised and can't spin up to full speed. Or your control board is feeding too many pellets(unlikely).

 

[Enumclaw]

Yep, she's in for a smackdown in the next few days. I will install the new exhaust motor I got as well as a thorough clean. Letcha know how it goes....

 

[Enumclaw]

Well, a good 5 hours worth of effort and the stove is running as intended. Installed the new exhaust motor, and cleaned the ducts, nooks, and crannies on that side while doing so. Surprisingly did not need a new gasket by the way; just lucky I guess.

I also removed the combustion air fan for a good cleaning. I am a little embarrassed to show this picture, but it must be done! A pretty good immediate indication of why I wasn't getting the heat out I thought I should be!

(broken image removed)

A thorough cleaning throughout, and another happy camper with a happy stove. Wish I had done this before last week's temperatures! Obviously I did not realize just how poorly it was operating, and how badly it needed cleaning.

Thanks for the feedback, and for playing along. By the way, I got the new exhaust motor and duct work for about $100 including shipping from CSH Inc. Just a little fyi.

 

[Madcodger]

Emumclaw,

Any chance you have a pic of the air intake on that combustion motor? I am trying to figure out how to add a OAK to a Quest, and can't see the combustion air intake clearly without removing the actual insert. Even a description would be helpful. Thanks in advance!

 

[Enumclaw]

Madcodger -

The air intake is what you see in the pic, only now a lot cleaner. There is about a 1.5" diameter pipe sticking out the back of the stove about an inch. The other end is simply right near the blades shown above. I just drilled a hole through the wall to match the size of the flex pipe I used, and bingo, outside air.

Hope this helps.