Wilo event

[skfire]

Interesting phenomenon for your reflection.

Two Wilo Eco Stratus f16 smart pumps, installed on my system 3.5 years ago and running non stop(as they do), decided to rotor lock Sunday morning.

All zones calling, primary loop pump running circulating 150f water and the Wilos are dead stopped with mixed down 110f feeds and with power supply ok.
Also adjusted speeds for kicks...no go.

No air, purged both pumps/legs, loop, (even though both feeds simultaneously locked due to air would be pretty improbable mathematically) and pumps still locked.

Finally went "high tech" and shut whole system down(reboot) and voila..they magically run..

According to pump specs & Wilo tech support, only 2 factors rotor lock these pumps:
a) 230f>
b) voltage irregularities....hmmmm

In said case:
a) Impossible in my system and exact circumstance, even though when they heard "wood boiler" they assumed that to be the cause....I was not impressed or amused, given the data I gave them regarding my system.

thus
b)...but nothing else was affected in the system, no power outs, no shut dns, ...so what gives?

End line from them...they are stumped and the event is going to higher ups for answers..to let me know asap.

Any thoughts or input?
see attached pic, the pumps are vert stacked side by side

Take care
Scott

 

[maple1]

Did they indicate how much of a voltage irregularity it would take?

 

[skfire]

Did they indicate how much of a voltage irregularity it would take?

Nope....I checked the specs did not find anything, just reference to name plate data.
Logically the variations must be pretty extreme since it has not happened in 3 years of living in a rural area with extreme power fluctuations...but it happened Sunday on a nice balmy day....to boot I have Surge protector break inline on my enitre system.


Scott

 

[Bob Rohr]

Nope....I checked the specs did not find anything, just reference to name plate data.
Logically the variations must be pretty extreme since it has not happened in 3 years of living in a rural area with extreme power fluctuations...but it happened Sunday on a nice balmy day....to boot I have Surge protector break inline on my enitre system.


Scott

My one experience with a problem like this ended up being dirty power. We found it by putting a data logger on the power to the boiler. Most microprocessors have a plus minus 10%. In the end the utility said their supplied voltage was in spec.

I took out the high efficiency boiler and replaced it with a basic standing pilot boiler.

What I finally discovered was a sawmill down the street would drag the voltage down when they fired up in the morning. If the boiler was in start up at that exact time, it went into hard lockup. These are frustrating troubleshooting challenges.

 

[heaterman]

Seeing as how they both started back up after killing the power (reset) I think it almost has to be some kind of anomaly with the incoming current. Could be either voltage or frequency. Variations in either will scramble the brains of the control module on any type of ECM device. I've seen it a couple times over the years on forced air furnaces with variable speed blowers. They're seemingly dead, kill the power, flip it back on and they come back to life. Who knows what really happens in the world of electrons and EMF.

I do know that on their 220V models, as well as other brands, the millisecond difference in when the two poles of the relay actual hit can cause some weird problems. Wilo's national trainer told me that.

I had the same type of experience Hot Rod described in a restaurant here. It's situated right across the street from a large dairy farm and over the years had an unusual amount of motor failures.
After changing out a burned up 2HP well pump motor one morning I was checking voltage on the new motor and was surprised to see it sitting at over 260V. Went to the breaker box and check the incoming and found the same thing. Turned out to be an intermittent transformer problem on the power companies line. It acted like it would boost the voltage when the dairy started milking in the morning to maintain 230V but then fail to "step down" when the load went off.
Really strange but after the transformer was changed (higher KVA rating) the restaurant didn't lose any more motors.

 

[ewdudley]

I do know that on their 220V models, as well as other brands, the millisecond difference in when the two poles of the relay actual hit can cause some weird problems. Wilo's national trainer told me that.

One of a few problems that can be avoided by energizing the relay coils the right amount of time before the next AC zero cross, timing it so the relay armatures land as close as possible to the zero cross. 4-5 ms for ice cubes, 2-3 for Chiclets.

 

[skfire]

One of a few problems that can be avoided by energizing the relay coils the right amount of time before the next AC zero cross, timing it so the relay armatures land as close as possible to the zero cross. 4-5 ms for ice cubes, 2-3 for Chiclets.

One possible solution may be to install a coil and relay to drop service to pumps when voltage drops below a setpoint of 110v. Then when Voltage re stabilizes, coil re energizes relay to re power pumps.
Dropbacks,...coil dead within maybe 8 years and added consumption pending on coil amperage draw...

Any ideas?

Btw it happened again this afternoon while I was in my office about 1/2 a mile away and lights were flickering for about 2 hours and all my Battery UPSs were clicking non stop..got home to find pumps locked up....called power company...no clue.

Thank you

Scott

 

[ewdudley]

Any ideas?

Power quality is so consistently good in the developed world that consumers and equipment manufactures get suckered-in to taking it for granted.

We had a modem in a cable TV system that would spontaneously go into a diagnostic loop-back mode after a power glitch, and the modem was located a hour away on top of a remote hilltop. (Motorola's response: "Yeah, you're right, they will do that.".) The 'solution' was to run the modem's power through an Intermatic cycle timer and reboot the thing every hour, so at least the whole system would be off line no more than an hour at a time.

In Florida, some dimwit in state DOT purchasing went out and bought hundreds and hundreds of the absolutely cheapest generators her brother-in-law could supply and used them to power traffic light cabinets in the aftermath of hurricanes or whatever. The unbelievably noisy power wreaked havoc with the firmware in the controllers, which relied on there being only two zero-crosses per line cycle, silly me. Ended up 'rolling a truck' to replace the firmware chips in every controller with a programming upgrade that had a limp mode that could handle the power.

Assuming Wilo won't be doing a field upgrade of their firmware any time soon, re-booting the pumps with a cycle timer every twenty minutes might be worthwhile if the problem persists. Or try your luck with Grundfos.

(Some interesting reading on the more general topic of emergent problems of the digital age:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.risks )

 

[jebatty]

Might a line conditioner provide the needed voltage regulation, handle the spikes and surges, and provide clean, computer grade power?

 

[maple1]

Or a larger-type UPS? That's what I'm hunting right now.

 

[skfire]

Or a larger-type UPS? That's what I'm hunting right now.

Actually it happened again last night and the even as I type this the lights in my office are flickering..again..
Spoke to Wilo techs and they are convinced the issue voltage variations, yes 10% is the threshold.
Additionally these pups(I was told) are highly magnetized and will attract any metal particles in the system water, so they have seen blockages/lock ups in the filed where dirty water is circulating.(not the issue here).

I am looking at the unit linked below, since battery back up is not an issue, I have a gen in line, so this conditioner would service the entire boiler room, minus Froling of course:
:http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-LC...6952&sr=1-3-spell&keywords=voltage+conitioner

Does anyone have any experience with these brand or style of unit?

Thank you all for your great input,

Scott

 

[ewdudley]

I am looking at the unit linked below, since battery back up is not an issue, I have a gen in line, so this conditioner would service the entire boiler room, minus Froling of course

Kinda takes the whole power-saving pump idea and turns it right over on its head!

 

[skfire]

Kinda takes the whole power-saving pump idea and turns it right over on its head!

I do not know what the overall prorated savings will over the life of the system, but the Voltage regulator addition would be around $95(found a cheaper one), I do not need 1,500w., 1,200 would more than suffice for my entire distribution manifold/room.

The draw on the Wilo Eco is 5.9w(max) @ 0.9 amps, where the avg deadhead pump would be 80w @ 0.66a and the larger Vilo would be 145w @ 1.3a.

Do not know what the offset would be including price difference in pump value+regulator, vs less utility cost + smartpump, over the life of any component..years/decade(s)

You do make a valid point...especially when you include time to troubleshoot something that is supposed to be automated bulletproof..and is rendered not, by "external variables".

what gets me is why have I not heard of this scenario before..am I the only guy with Wilo pumps in a rural area in North America..and the only one with dirty juice?????

Scott

 

[ewdudley]

Two Wilo Eco Stratus f16 smart pumps, installed on my system 3.5 years ago and running non stop

A lot of us have flakey power, but it does sound like you're experiencing an extraordinary power delivery system failure mode that started recently and needs to be fixed. But finding someone who can identify the problem, and then motivating the responsible parties to fix it, that could be quite a project.

 

[skfire]

A lot of us have flakey power, but it does sound like you're experiencing an extraordinary power delivery system failure mode that started recently and needs to be fixed. But finding someone who can identify the problem, and then motivating the responsible parties to fix it, that could be quite a project.

PPL Electric(local power co) has been notified 3 times...it takes them 3 days to investigate(per their notifications).
Had 3 more power outages today in the office along with intermittent flickering...something is up....one the UPS failed and..lost a good size chunk on 2 CAD files on huge floors...autosave also failed....not a good electronics week...EMP anyone?

Irregardless of their action, I will install a line conditioner in my entire boiler room, thus eliminating the ifs/ands and buts from my end..

Thanks again...I appreciate the input and advice.

scott

 

[heaterman]

Ouch!

Definitely some serious spikes or a transformer issue on the power line somewhere.

 

[maple1]

They have to be hearing some serious complaints from your neighbours too if that's going on. Potential for all kinds of electronics destruction, from the sound of it.

 

[kopeck]

I might look for a UPS and not just a line conditioner as the UPS will give you backup as well (power out over heat).

You can always replace the little sealed batteries with an external deep cycle batter if need be.

I've have a used 220v HP unit that I need to hook up at some point. Finding a 220v UPS isn't all that easy, then on top of it this sucker needs 48v DC for backup, so I either need to rebuild it's pack or get 4 12v deep cycle or 2 24v deep cycled batteries...

K

 

[huffdawg]

I had a similar problem at the last house I owned . One of the three legs spliced to the house corroded inside.So whenever the wind blew at all I was losing one leg intermittently. Screwed up all the electronics in my house. The hydro company replaced all of damaged electronics.

 

[skfire]

Quick update, lights stopped flickering and no power outages since Friday afternoon. Coincidentally, same evening on the way home, passed my truck, about 15 or ore Aplundh and Jaflo truckis were moviong out of out area...but of course PPL had no answers fro the power issues....
Either way I am testing the Voltage line conditioner hooked up temporarily since yesterday and after a week's testing I will build a shelf and wired to where it will live.
2 pix attached of the temp hook up(only pumps for now, entire room later), unit is 1800w, @ 15A max, and 1800w @ 12A continuously.)

 

[skfire]

Final resolution update,
Hooked up the voltage conditioner to the entire boiler room(lives on shelf above door), sans Froling, via new box/ wiring/plus receptacles, before main boiler room shut down switch(as seen on attached pic).
On actual voltage irregularities observed..plenty. At least once every other day(at the time I am there to observe it), conditioner shows higher voltage which I have measured as high as 129.8v. Obviously this was shutting down the Wilo pumps, rated for 115 with a 10% variation allowance.
Now all pumps and controllers in boiler room are conditioned, Aquatrol controller can be damaged by same issue.

SK

 

[700renegade]

skfire - are you sure you don't have a corroded neutral somewhere between you and the transformer?

Your symptoms sound a lot like issues I've had with corroded split bolt connections on the neutrals on the overhead lines in various spots on my farm site. Resistance in the neutral would vary with wind / temperature / humidity and I'd get crazy voltage spikes/brownouts on opposite legs of my breaker boxes. Intensity of the spikes would vary with the load imbalance on the two legs. When my well pump or another heavy 230v load was on it would smooth things right out.

It's just a suggestion in case it hadn't been checked, or others reading the forum stumble into it. If your neighbors are having the same voltage problems then obviously it's a utility problem.

 

[skfire]

skfire - are you sure you don't have a corroded neutral somewhere between you and the transformer?

Your symptoms sound a lot like issues I've had with corroded split bolt connections on the neutrals on the overhead lines in various spots on my farm site. Resistance in the neutral would vary with wind / temperature / humidity and I'd get crazy voltage spikes/brownouts on opposite legs of my breaker boxes. Intensity of the spikes would vary with the load imbalance on the two legs. When my well pump or another heavy 230v load was on it would smooth things right out.

It's just a suggestion in case it hadn't been checked, or others reading the forum stumble into it. If your neighbors are having the same voltage problems then obviously it's a utility problem.

All my lines from the utility pole to the house are buried, nothing corroded and the power up here is always on the fritz..we are on a real back dirt road and the lines terminate about 1/2 a mule from our homestead. Neighbors have had issues as well but with spikes as opposed to drops they don't seem to notice, hell I didn't either until the willos seized up.
thanks for the heads up 700

scott

 

[huffdawg]

How far is a half a mule

 

[skfire]

How far is a half a mule

damn Huff..U are quick on the draw......within 2 minutes of posting, while I am editing...HATE THESE SILLY LITTLE TEXT PHONES.....Nice work
Half a mule is as far as the mule will go without his favorite RED SOLO CUP!