Wood heating to be banned in New York state

[stoveliker]

I didn't realize that. Does the unit just run non-stop then when temps get really cold ?

I think most people have a minisplit as a secondary option. I have a minisplit system. Works fantastic. Works fair down to 17 F. Obviously the efficiency in moving heat from the 17 F outside to the 68 F inside goes down. So, I have a wood stove (and for insurance purposes I have oil-heated hydronic baseboard that is not being used anymore).

There are units that work with fair efficiency down to 5 F or so.

THere is a member (@Brian26 I believe) that knows a lot about these.

 

[sloeffle]

Mini splits pretty much run non-stop all the time, they just turn up/down the compressor to match the load. As an example, it was about 6F here this morning, and I'm using about 2800w to heat the house. My cold weather unit does have a heater strip in the drain pan so the ice doesn't build up during defrost cycles in the cold weather, it only run as needed during defrosts, which happen every 2 hours, unless there's precipitation snow/ice that is getting on the outdoor coils.

I have a 4 ton geo unit and it uses roughly 2900w when running in second stage, luckily it runs in first stage ( 2400w ) most of the time. I don't run my geo when it gets really cold though either.

Out of curiosity, how many tons is your mini-split, and roughly how many sq ft are you heating with it ?

Any idea how many watts does the mini pulls when the heat strip kicks on to defrost the the drain pan ?

 

[NorMi]

Mine was cheaper to run for all season vs. propane last year, and this year the mini split should run about 2/3 - 1/2 the cost of propane. I'm putting in the wood furnace option this year to use on the coldest days and to use up free wood from the property. Buying wood at market rates is also more expensive than heating with the mini split here... and that's on 18.1 cents/ kwh delivered for electricity. The coldest month here is January with average daily temperature of 17F.

I originally was going to keep using the propane direct vent heater, but no one would come fill the tank after I bought the house without a bill of sale for the tank, or setting a new tank for $$$. I ran the numbers and went ahead and installed the mini split last year. I keep a couple 100lb. tanks as a backup and disconnected the 500 gallon tank.

 

[NorMi]

I have a 4 ton geo unit and it uses roughly 2900w when running in second stage, luckily it runs in first stage ( 2400w ) most of the time. I don't run my geo when it gets really cold though either.

Out of curiosity, how many tons is your mini-split, and roughly how many sq ft are you heating with it ?

Any idea how many watts does the mini pulls when the heat strip kicks on to defrost the the drain pan ?

The heat strip in the pan is barely noticeable, it pulls about 50-100w during the 5 minute defrost cycles when it's below about 20F outside. I am heating a 1890's farmhouse that was renovated in the early 2000's, 1900 ft^2. I only heat downstairs with the two heads off the mini split, 950 ft^2 which keeps the bedrooms about 62 F. It is a 27K BTU Bosch, I undersized it thinking I would add a 2nd unit for the upstairs rooms, but never needed it so far.

 

[stoveliker]

I think there are two things.
The defrost cycle is one ( intermittent) thing, but there is also heating going on of the coolant when the system is not in use and it's cold outside, so that something (water in the coolant?) does not settle - or so. Needed to be on for a while before the system switches on when it's cold to avoid damage. Hence it's always on. I thought 40 W or so.
This is for me a case of having heard about it without having intimate knowledge.

There is a thread somewhere here about this permanent (when cold) heating thing being on, and implementing breakers to kill "all" when you know you're not using the heat pump.

 

[peakbagger]

Mini splits pretty much run non-stop all the time, they just turn up/down the compressor to match the load. As an example, it was about 6F here this morning, and I'm using about 2800w to heat the house. My cold weather unit does have a heater strip in the drain pan so the ice doesn't build up during defrost cycles in the cold weather, it only run as needed during defrosts, which happen every 2 hours, unless there's precipitation snow/ice that is getting on the outdoor coils.

My experience is contrary to yours in Northern NH, I have a cold climate Mitsubishi unit that is rated for heat down to -12 F but like it or not the quality of heat is poor down below 10 F. Yes, it is technically heating the air above the room temp but down at the lower temps it is just a few degrees over the room temp. I am not the only person or entity noticing this, Both Maine and Vermont is suggesting that these are supplemental heating units only with some cold weather backup. As far as I am aware, there are no companies building cold climate mini splits with supplemental heating coils. On new construction on seasonal places, builders are putting in electric floor radiators to make up the deficit in very cold weather and speed up how quickly they can warm up the place. Mini Splits are not cheap and few people are going to install multiple units to cover the heating load at the design heating load. Far better to install a very efficient heat source that covers the majority of the load and a backup. The backup would be sized to heat the space just over freezing.

As I have mentioned, I know someone who sells and installs vented oil fired heaters (Used Monitors or new Toyo Stoves) they sell a lot of them to people who bet on cold climate heat pumps in Maine and had a tough time when things got real cold in Maine. They put out a lot of heat in small space and do not need much power to run during a power outage (200 to 300 watts).

 

[NorMi]

Yeah my plan was to use the propane as a backup last year during cold snaps, but I never used it. That's one of the reasons I went with 100lb tanks, to strongly dissuade myself from firing up that system, as I am not really fond of lugging those 170lb monsters around to fill them! It would have been cheaper on the coldest days to use the propane, but it wasn't worth the hassle to switch over for me. The coldest day last year for me was Feb. 11th and it got down to -9F overnight, so it was a mild-ish year.

I did a study on the install last year and I was using 3.04 kWh/HDD (heating degree day) for propane heat and 0.57 kWh/HDD on the mini split as the seasonal average. The propane kWh are cheaper, but since it used so many more, it came out to be slightly more expensive per HDD, and this year that cost has about doubled. I did everything converted into kWh when I did the study so it was easier to compare apples/apples of input energy and cost/unit of energy. It cost $3,337.28 to install the mini split.

 

[salecker]

Mine was cheaper to run for all season vs. propane last year, and this year the mini split should run about 2/3 - 1/2 the cost of propane. I'm putting in the wood furnace option this year to use on the coldest days and to use up free wood from the property. Buying wood at market rates is also more expensive than heating with the mini split here... and that's on 18.1 cents/ kwh delivered for electricity. The coldest month here is January with average daily temperature of 17F.

I originally was going to keep using the propane direct vent heater, but no one would come fill the tank after I bought the house without a bill of sale for the tank, or setting a new tank for $$$. I ran the numbers and went ahead and installed the mini split last year. I keep a couple 100lb. tanks as a backup and disconnected the 500 gallon tank.

I am sure you could sell that tank if it's no good to you
Great storage for someone

 

[NorMi]

I am sure you could sell that tank if it's no good to you
Great storage for someone

I'm actually using it for secondary storage to run my larger generator now from my wood gasifier! I didn't want to let it go to waste even if the propane companies around here are knuckleheads. I doubt anyone could get it "legally" filled in the local area since they all want the original bill of sale for the tank or to sell you a new one. That was the first time in my life a vendor (all the vendors!) talked me out of using their product because they made it such a hassle to work with them... I couldn't believe it when I moved in! I guess they figured everyone is a captive customer or something. 😡

 

[salecker]

Yes "customer is always right" is so last century...

 

[hoot]

Wood isn't actually carbon neutral. But it's about as close as we get as a heat source. The difference is one in the processing emissions are created. And two when wood rots a large portion of the carbon ends up back in the ground not released into the atmosphere. But untill electrical generation changes allot wood is certainly much closer to neutral.

Trees extract co2 from the air we breath and generate oxygen.... in the process creating the fuel or "wood battery"
You take the co2 out of the air, store it in the wood, when you burn, it goes back in the air to be reused by the new trees.

 

[bholler]

Trees extract co2 from the air we breath and generate oxygen.... in the process creating the fuel or "wood battery"
You take the co2 out of the air, store it in the wood, when you burn, it goes back in the air to be reused by the new trees.

Yes but by burning wood you are releasing more sequestered carbon than would have been released if the wood was left to rot. Like I said it's about as close as we can get to neutral but it still isn't

 

[71montess]

Trees extract co2 from the air we breath and generate oxygen.... in the process creating the fuel or "wood battery"
You take the co2 out of the air, store it in the wood, when you burn, it goes back in the air to be reused by the new trees.

And who wants to be neutral ? I m not for smoke dragons but this carbon neutral thing and bringing the associated costs up with all fuels is borderline insane.

 

[hoot]

And who wants to be neutral ? I m not for smoke dragons but this carbon neutral thing and bringing the associated costs up with all fuels is borderline insane.

They will never fix climate change with dictatorship. I have always said if we can get population down, so will everything environmental get better. Less babies, let attrition reduce population.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

Hair on fire is a great personal heating source.