Woodstock questions

[Beltsander2110]

Hi everyone. I have a woodstock keystone. Iv been running it for my second year. It is very far from new,a friend ripped it out of a house he bought and gave it to me. It was looked over and obvious gaskets were replaced when I got it, but otherwise good condition. Let me start by saying I love a soapstone stove. I love the gentle heat it throws off. My hang up is this. I'm not getting the burn times I'm supposed to. Let me start from the beginning. I'm in a 2 story 1700 sq foot cape cod house in souther nj. My stove isn't placed optimally but I'm ok with that. It is a through the wall 90 degree installation with 20 feet of stainless chimney. I replaced the cat from woodstock at the end of my first year of ownership.

I'm not getting anywhere near the burn times everyone else seems to get. I get about 3 hours of heat on a load comfortably. I have a magnetic temp gauge 18 inches higher than the stove on the single wall pipe. Going by that, I need to increase the air after about an hour (on a hot stove) to keep it in the yellow zone. According to the laser temp gauge, my stove top temp ranges from 250 to about 550 on a "as I shoot it" basis , with no consistency, . I know my wood is seasoned. Iv been splitting it for profit for years, and now that I own a house and a stove, I get the prime stuff first. I run 100 percent oak 2 years old.

I don't see overnight burns in this stove with the air cranked as low as .250. Iv tried pushing it to get the house very warm and iv tried throttling it down to maintain a low and steady heat. It doesn't matter. I can either maintain 70 degrees in the house for 3 hours and drop temp or peak 90 in the living room but still have a 3 hour burn time till its obvious i need to reload.

My questions are this.
Is this stove just too small for a 1700 sq ft bi level? Am I doing something extremely wrong? Do you think I'm better suited for a bigger stove? ( and please recommend a soapstone one as it's in my living room and I'm thrilled I don't get sweated out) and finally, am I overstressing things? If I let the stove run at .250 air, after an hour the cat stops glowing and my stack temp drops under 300 degrees....do cat stoves not care as much about creosote production? I read that even if the cats not glowing it's still working, but...shouldnt stack temp still stay high? I know burning wood is linear, but 3 hours?

 

[Woody Stover]

Have you taken one of your larger splits of wood, at room temp, then re-split it and measured the moisture content on the freshly-exposed face? If you don't have a meter, Harbor Freight has one for about $15, I think. When you say your Oak is two years, is that split and stacked in the wind, and top-covered? The reason I ask is that I've found that when my Oak has three summers split and stacked, it's down around 18% moisture and really burns well. My stove top over the cat will go to 625+. Other areas of the top aren't nearly that hot. 550 isn't bad though, and the stove should be throwing decent heat.
My Ks is rear-vented with 16' vertical, and in cold weather I generally run with the air around 1 or a little under. With days that are upper 30s/low 20s at night, I might cut the air to .75 or less. I can go 10 hrs. with the stove top above 250 with Red Oak, a bit longer with White Oak, Hickory, Dogwood, BL etc
My house is a bit leaky and there's no wall insulation, but I'm only heating about 1000 sq.ft. I generally have the mudroom/bedroom door open only about 4" to keep more heat in the main room. You might be a bit under-stoved at 1700 and two stories. You say the stove isn't "placed optimally" so if it's at one end of the house and not at the center of the layout, heating the space evenly is more difficult yet. How is your insulation and air-sealing? The website says "up to 1300 sq.ft." for the Ks. From what you're saying, it sounds like you are only getting enough heat in the early stages of the burn, when the cat is really rockin'. At least half the heat life of the burn is when the cat has less to burn as the wood coals. If it's cold out and I need more heat, but still have a lot of coals, I'll pull the coals forward and toss on a flat split of Cherry, which will get the cat burning again, get the top 450+, and it will slowly glide back down under 400 over a few hours.
When you say you can't get an overnight burn with the air at .25, are you saying that all the coals are gone, or just that room temp isn't high enough?
Also, I wouldn't be concerned with what the flue meter color ranges are saying..flue temps will start falling as soon as you close the bypass, and will drop close to 200 for the duration. I think those meters are zoned for tube stoves, or old smoke-blower stoves.
I haven't seen Woodstock's steel stoves yet but based on the quality I've seen in the Ks and Fireview, I may buy an Absolute, sight unseen. With more firebox volume than the Fv, that thing would handle your house no problem, I would think. If you need to move heat out of the stove room, put a small 8-10" fan on the floor outside the room on low, blowing cool air in along the floor. This will force the lighter warm air out the top of the doorway.

 

[Rearscreen]

I do think it may be underpowered depending your house and stove placement. Have you cleaned the cat lately? Done the vinegar wash? When my temp goes down on my progress heading for the dreaded black zone, I don't open the air, I add more wood. Also, in the summer I have a makeshift angled copper tube that I attach to the vac to really get into the inner nooks and crannies. Obviously, the Progress is different, my brother has a Keystone but I haven't seen the insides. Yet.

 

[begreen]

It does sound like the stove is undersized for the house and climate. If looking at a replacement I would also look at cast-iron clad steel stoves. They have a soapstone like soft heat, but with a tough firebox. The cast iron jacket acts like soapstone in that is buffers the radiant heat from the inner steel stove and then slowly releases it after the fire has died down.

 

[Ashful]

Only thing I’ll add is that you can’t really drive a cat stove by the flue temperature. Flue gas can be quite cool, but it doesn’t mean the stove is cooling, or operating incorrectly. Those color ranges on flue thermometers are not applicable to cat stoves, either.

Drive by your catalytic probe thermometer, or at worse, stove top temperature. You can move that flue thermometer to the stovetop, even though it’s not magnetic. One of the Fireview owners here can tell you the best place to put it.

 

[Woody Stover]

Have you cleaned the cat lately? Done the vinegar wash? When my temp goes down on my progress heading for the dreaded black zone, I don't open the air, I add more wood. Also, in the summer I have a makeshift angled copper tube that I attach to the vac to really get into the inner nooks and crannies. Obviously, the Progress is different, my brother has a Keystone but I haven't seen the insides. Yet.

He said he replace the cat a year ago, but I guess it could be clogged already, especially if it has the older cast iron combustor scoop with the expanded-metal mesh instead of the stainless scoop with the screen. It sounds unusual for the cat to quit glowing after only an hour. I have a new Durafoil cat (which he probably has) on deck, haven't run it yet, but the ceramic I'm using now is in its third year as near as I can figure, and glows for three hours. Seems like the diesel foil cats I ran in both the Fireview and the Ks also glowed for about that long but I can't exactly remember.
Another reason that it could glow for a shorter time is if his wood is a little damper than he thinks it is..
On your brother's Keystone you can remove the cat by taking the flue exit blocking plate off, taking out the bolt that holds the heat shield, then lifting the cat out. Or to just brush it, you can remove the combustor scoop inside the stove, and brush the face of the cat leaving it in place.

 

[fire_man]

You should get easy 10 hour burns from the time you engage the cat until the coals are burned down to a state that can still light another fire and the stovetop temp should be reading 250F or so by the end. That's on a full load of seasoned oak with the air set to 0.25.

If your cat and gaskets are new, you may have a leak somewhere else in the stove panels. I would call Woodstock for help.

3 hours of solid heat might be about right for the cat to be very active and the stove throws a ton of heat, but it should still take 10 hours to burn the load down to hot coals.

 

[Woody Stover]

Only thing I’ll add is that you can’t really drive a cat stove by the flue temperature. Flue gas can be quite cool, but it doesn’t mean the stove is cooling, or operating incorrectly. Those color ranges on flue thermometers are not applicable to cat stoves, either

Nice get!

 

[Rearscreen]

Woody, my mistake. Fireview.

 

[Ashful]

Woody, my mistake. Fireview.

Call me Radar.

 

[beardley]

I also see around 10 hours with a large sugar maple piece tucked in the back, and a mix of ash, etc around it. I normally run in the .75 range. I can't keep up with the cat styles, but I have the SS cat that still needs the cast iron case. With a full load, its probably glowing for 3-4 hours before it gets the the coaling stage. Stove top temp is the same as woody. On a full load it will normally peak above 600 for an hour or so, then sit in the 500+ range for another few hours before it fades down. Again that is at a fairly concentrated point above the cat. If I measure off to the side of the top, it may be at 4-500 when the middle is approaching 700. Side my be @ 350 at that point if there's no flame in the box.

I would also go with others suspicions on the wood in this case. 2 years on oak could be iffy, and I know from first hand experience, it can be a bit of a struggle getting it to really keep rolling if the wood isn't ideal. On the other hand, if you're saying after 3 hours, you're full load is gone, and you're running out of coals to start another fire, there has to be a leak somewhere at a seam somewhere.

 

[Beltsander2110]

Thanks everyone. I see a couple things to look into. My wood supply is stacked and only top covered, they are split on the smaller side for my liking, this Firebox is rather small, and when splitting i tend to err on the smaller side.
I' glad I shouldnt need to worry about the flue temp as much as I am. I was suspicious that the cat cleaned it well enough to cause less concern.
As far as burn times, well, that the thing. So say i load a hot stove, give it some time to warm up with the bypass open, and then close and throttle down the air, I usually get a quick cat light off. With zero intervienence it' done glowing in about 2.5 to 3 hours. I' seeing coal burnt out at around the 7 hour mark. Sure does make it tough to keep the house good while at work.And come home to throw some logs on. Mind you, I'm not reliant on the stove, the furnace also works fine, perhaps I do need to look into moisture of the oak a little better.
I also suspected air leaks. If any of you can tell me your conditions....i don't mind running at a super low burn. With the cat glowing and the firebox dark. After some time though I do start to see flames originating at the bottom. Not secondary,s but straight rising blueish yellow flames, small and intense. I can only assume that is indeed air leakage and most likely contributing to the faster cycle times.
I contacted woodstock on a proper factory rebuild. But for the price they are asking a newer, bigger, hybrid really seems like the best option and I believe better clearances.
I like woodstock for their product and their support and I'm watching very closely a people rate the newer stoves I do like that soapstone though..hmmmm

 

[beardley]

When you say "split small" what size is that in cross section? I find, if I only load "small stuff" which is 3-4" cross section, I'd probably be at the same point at 7-8 hours. To come home from work after 10 hours with enough coals for a restart, I need 1 large piece in the back, probably 6" cross section. Most of my wood is split smaller, but I like to keep a supply of the big ones around, just for this reason. My gut feeling is the place is just too big to keep up. I'm heating 1400 sq' of well insulated and tight space. I don't think it could handle much more space on the really cold days.

 

[Woody Stover]

done glowing in about 2.5 to 3 hours. seeing coal burnt out at around the 7 hour mark. After some time though I do start to see flames originating at the bottom. Not secondary,s but straight rising blueish yellow flames, small and intense.
I contacted woodstock on a proper factory rebuild. But for the price they are asking a newer, bigger, hybrid really seems like the best option and I believe better clearances...I do like that soapstone though..hmmmm

3 hrs. is about right to see the cat glowing, and with the smaller splits, like beardley said, it's hard to have coals left at 10 hrs. I use some bigger 6" splits as well.
The flame in the bottom center that you see later in the burn is probably the vent hole in the back of the ash pan, which keeps the wood in the back of burning toward the end of the burn. Are you seeing any flame coming off any of the vertical corner seams, or around the door area, when it's smoky in the box but intermittent flames are popping up? That would indicate some air coming in at the seams.
I too think you need a bigger stove for that space, and that will give you longer burns of course. I like the idea of the welded steel box to eliminate the possibility of seam leaks.

 

[SteveKG]

I have a Keystone, 1100 sq ft cottage. It heats the place, but any larger space I'd think the stove would be inadequate. Perfect for us, but we have this smaller house.

Also, I never get overnight burns in it. However, we only have aspen and pine available. Someone brought me a few oak chunks once, from 800 miles away, so it was nice of him, and I had great overnight burns for a couple firings. We enjoy a cooler house at night, so no problem for us.

OP needs a larger stove.