Yeah, I see where you are coming from. I ignored the first 9 years due to it being flatline except for the 1 spike. Thanks for your input.
Got Propane?
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Yeah, I see where you are coming from. I ignored the first 9 years due to it being flatline except for the 1 spike. Thanks for your input.
JTWALL
Member
I see on the news propane jumped $.90 in one day! Makes my woodpile look wonderful! Eko Model 25 (5th winter) keeps chugging along! Keep warm.
Glad to hear of your happy chugging. I too am warm and happy with the EKO25. Got plenty of wood c/s/s and just recieved a drop today of 10 pulp cords which cost exactly the same price as last year.
This article tells of the propane price surge and stockpile numbers.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/23/energy-propane-prices-idUSL2N0KX1FG20140123
The propane price will come down again, this shortage is short lived. IMO a electric dwh will cost more than propane unless your on a off peak program and you have a Marathon water heater. The math can be done by your utility provider or yourself.
maple1
Minister of Fire
If so I don't think it can be by much. Our 80 gallon electric runs about $30/mo @ $0.17/kwh, family of 5.
Propane may likely come down - but pretty sure it won't stay down.
Gas fired hot water tanks are inefficient. Just look at the ratings on them. Its very generous the ratings do not include the standby loss from the stack from it sitting all day. A electric tank is near 100% efficient and does not have a stack loss.
It really depends on what you pay and propane pricing is all over the map. If you heat with propane then you probably get a good enough price to make DHW heating cheaper than electric. If you mainly just use i for DHW like me then your propane company is probably hosing you with a stupidly high price.
Of course it depends on what you pay for electric also. In NE we pay top dollar for electricity and its still cheaper than what I am paying for propane right now.
By the way, I'm suspicious of ALL utility provided math
AndrewChurchill
Minister of Fire
It also doesn't have good recovery. Once you've used the all the hot water you have to wait for awhile before you have hot water again. I use my boiler to heat my 53 gallon hot water tank and it can put out over 300 gallons of hot water an hour. Let's see an electric or gas fired tank do that!
It also doesn't have good recovery. Once you've used the all the hot water you have to wait for awhile before you have hot water again. I use my boiler to heat my 53 gallon hot water tank and it can put out over 300 gallons of hot water an hour. Let's see an electric or gas fired tank do that!
Yes recovery sucks. But a 80 gallon tank cost the same to operate as a 40 gallon tank. If 80 isnt enough then well I dont know
If your boiling is firing to just make hot water its really really inefficient kind of like driving a semi to the grocery store rather then a regular car.
AndrewChurchill
Minister of Fire
Yes recovery sucks. But a 80 gallon tank cost the same to operate as a 40 gallon tank. If 80 isnt enough then well I dont know
If your boiling is firing to just make hot water its really really inefficient kind of like driving a semi to the grocery store rather then a regular car.
I'm providing DHW for my house as well as an apartment so in my case recovery is important and the Buderus tank (according to the marketing department....) only loses 1/4 degree per hour so my standby losses are negligible.
Indirects are good in terms of efficiency they dont have the losses that a standalone fired unit has. As long as they are hooked up to a decent boiler.
AndrewChurchill
Minister of Fire
I'm hooked up to a Buderus 215 4 section boiler. With the pellet burner I'm about 83% efficient.
Cost and Lifespan
While traditional gas and electric storage units are similar in initial purchase price, electricity costs more to use than gas, that means over time, electric units are more expensive to operate. Installation of an electric water heater can be made more expensive by the requirement for a 220 volt outlet, and the wiring for this in an electrical panel. Electric water heaters may have a slightly longer lifespan than gas units, but this largely depends on local water quality and owner maintenance.
For consumers, gas is almost always a cheaper option than electricity, and this simple fact has been enough for many homeowners to choose gas water heaters. If a gas line is already available in a house, it is a much cheaper option. Switching over from electric to gas can be expensive, because it may require installation of a gas line and venting for exhaust heat. Gas heaters can have a slightly shorter lifespan, but the difference is not significant (12 instead of 13 years, for example).
Some won't like my copy and paste but this is what I'm finding. This is from Michaelbluejay.com
Gas vs. Electric
Gas is almost always cheaper than electric, whether tank or tankless. The energy cost is typically about $30/mo. vs. $42/mo. for a gas vs. electric tank. (EPA PDF) Electric tanks do offer some advantages over gas tanks, though:
- Electric heaters are cheaper, because they're less complicated.
- They're easier to install -- no gas pipes required, no venting required.
- They're safer (no fuel to leak or explode, no pilot light to go out leaking gas into home, no combustion byproducts).
The table below shows the energy factors (a measure of efficiency) for various kinds of heaters. But remember, ironically, the less-efficient gas tanks are generally cheaper to run than the more-efficient electric tanks.
Electric tankless units cost as much or more to run as gas tanks.
A boiler system can have a clear advantage with its btu output and large exchangers. I'd say most households don't have a system like yours.It also doesn't have good recovery. Once you've used the all the hot water you have to wait for awhile before you have hot water again. I use my boiler to heat my 53 gallon hot water tank and it can put out over 300 gallons of hot water an hour. Let's see an electric or gas fired tank do that!
Here is a Georgia study.
The water heater systems test was conducted under the engineering direction of Exelon Services Federal Group (ESFG). A series of tests were conducted using a Rheem natural gas water heater (model # 21V40-38), a Rheem electric water heater (model # 81V40D), and Rinnai Continuum Tankless water heater (natural gas). For all three water heating systems, the supply water temperature and pressure were identical. All three systems were installed in the same conditioned space and flow meters were used to ensure testing was performed under the same flow conditions.
Test #1 , between the traditional electric and gas tank water heaters, showed natural gas water heating operating costs to be 35% less than the electric water heating system operating costs. The Rinnai Continuum Tankless water heating system costs 55% less to operate than the electric tank system and 31% less to operate than the natural gas tank system. This was based on typical usage of an average four-person household.
Test #2 measured delivery (how much hot water can you get from the tank before you run out). The natural gas tank delivered 36% more hot water than the electric unit. That’s an extra 33.2 gallons of hot water for bathing, washing clothes and dishes.
Test #3 measured recovery (how much time does it take for the water heater to heat the incoming water to the desired temperature). The natural gas tank recovered 64% faster than the electric tank.
This was a comparison of natural gas I know. And methane is cheap right now. Fuels go up and down in price. Like I said I think LP will come down in cost in time.
Interesting heres a couple items from that document with more relative numbers. Using $3 a gallon for propane and .14 kw/hr for electric. These would be yearly operating costs.
$861 propane ( 261 therms * 1.1 ( normalize propane is sold by gallon) * 3 per gallon of propane )
$680 electric .14 kw/hr ( 4857 kw/yr * .14 )
Natural gas should always be cheaper I would hope at least its where a lot of your electricity comes from.
$861 propane ( 261 therms * 1.1 ( normalize propane is sold by gallon) * 3 per gallon of propane )
$680 electric .14 kw/hr ( 4857 kw/yr * .14 )
Natural gas should always be cheaper I would hope at least its where a lot of your electricity comes from.
This winter electric wins. I wander how the past 10 years cost comparison would show? It's all In what you prefer I guess. My 1800 sq ft house only uses 300Kw per month avg. with central air but it's just myself here. On account of having no choice but a 3000 gallon septic holding tank that must be pumped and trucked out.... My showers are very very short. And I use dual flush toilets in both bathrooms and it would be a luxury to flush them with every use just as a example of how water is conserved here. You know the saying, if it's yellow let it mellow... Most homes up here go by that....
Chris Hoskin
TarmSalesGuy
Ken, at those prices for firewood, you might want to consider picking up a pallet/ton of Bio Bricks to mix in with your current wood so it lasts longer and/or your next year's supply so that the moisture content of the fuel load is lower. In my experience you can buy a skid for about $300.00 which is the equivalent of a cord of wood, but super dry. I don't recommend you burn them straight, but mixed with regular firewood works very well. Got a half a load of bio bricks mixed with firewood in the showroom FHG right now and we're heating the whole place with just above zero outdoors! Good stuff. Go to http://originalbiobricks.com/buy to find your local dealer. (no affiliation, just like to burn 'em).
jebatty
Minister of Fire
$4-$5 a month for electric for wife and me. We've used a lot of if we use 20 gallons a day, let alone an hour. Nothing is cheaper than electric for us.
heaterman
Minister of Fire
Using local prices here and the DOE fuel cost calculator, this is how the numbers crunch out in Michigan.I own my LP tank. If I think I'm hosed I call another supplier to compare the price and I only fill in the summer after the price has settled.It really depends on what you pay and propane pricing is all over the map. If you heat with propane then you probably get a good enough price to make DHW heating cheaper than electric. If you mainly just use i for DHW like me then your propane company is probably hosing you with a stupidly high price.
Of course it depends on what you pay for electric also. In NE we pay top dollar for electricity and its still cheaper than what I am paying for propane right now.
By the way, I'm suspicious of ALL utility provided math
It's simple math to figure out fuel cost for any energy using appliance. It's all in btu's per hour and Efficiency rating. I've met with an electric company number cruncher and he told it like it was. And he showed the cost of the various gas or electric heaters too. It was for heating a insulated garage in Minnesota. But suspicion is good and they get it often I'm sure, lol
jebatty
Minister of Fire
No doubt the numbers don't lie, except the numbers are way out of whack in our area. Electric for off-peak hot water is about $0.04/kwh. That comes to $11.72 per million btu. Natural gas is not available; no idea of the rate if it would be available. No way to get wood at $95/cord, maybe $185 around here, IF it was available. Seasoned fire wood very hard to find currently. Have no idea about the other fuels.
At $4-5/month for "fuel" cost for dhw, I could run on resistance electric for probably 20 years for the initial cost of a heat pump hot water heater. Wife and I practice conservation + insulation = very low cost = $$$ savings for things more important than water dumped down the drain.
At $4-5/month for "fuel" cost for dhw, I could run on resistance electric for probably 20 years for the initial cost of a heat pump hot water heater. Wife and I practice conservation + insulation = very low cost = $$$ savings for things more important than water dumped down the drain.
heaterman
Minister of Fire
Just hung up with a customer that told me he had to buy propane for $3.18/gallon as all of his prebuy quantity from last summer was already used up. He bought that for $1.79.
At that price he didn't think a pellet boiler made sense and he's probably right from an purely economic standpoint. Now however, he is thinking differently.....
At that price he didn't think a pellet boiler made sense and he's probably right from an purely economic standpoint. Now however, he is thinking differently.....
BoilerMan
Minister of Fire
If I were building a house with really cheap off peak rates (wish we had TOU metering here) I'd install an 80 gal electric water heater on a timer, electric boiler to heat thick slab-on-grade on a timer, or at the least, 1000 gal LP tank with electric elements to heat it at night......electric storage.
I'd say heaterman's numbers ar pretty close to what we pay here.
With all this talk about water heating, a standing pilot gas unit has efficiencies in the 50-60% range, direct fired oil (Bock) are not much better. This is what happens when you have a vertical flue right up the middle of a steel tank.....
TS
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