new home construction

[ky_dave]

We are building a new home and looking for advise on wood fireplaces / inserts. our home is approximately 3500 sq ft on the main floor and a full basement. We are building a "fireplace on the first floor and have a flue opening in the basement. The house will have 3 dual fuel (gas & electric) heat pumps but we are looking to mainly heat with wood.

My questions are as follows:
1. Since this is a new construction, is an insert really the best way to go to provide the best heat?
2. I know the the term "best" is subjective, but what would be y'all's recommendations for the best fireplace or insert?
3. For the basement, I'm looking for a stove. My parents have an older pilgrim and it will run you out of the basement. I've looked at buck and Jotel. Recommendations?

thanks,
Dave

 

[begreen]

Welcome. Given the size of the home and the desire to heat with wood, have you considered a wood furnace or boiler? 7500 sq ft is a lot to heat, even with everything well insulated. For sure insulate the basement well and consider methods for insulating the main floor to stop thermal bridging through the exterior wall studs.

If you want the ambiance of a large wood fireplace for the main floor consider a modern EPA zero clearance from Kozy, FPX, BIS, Heat n' Glow (Northstar), Quadrafire.

 

[Grisu]

Welcome to the forum!

Since this will be a new construction I doubt you will want to get a fireplace insert as those require to build a fully functional masonry fireplace first. What you should look for is an efficient, EPA-approved zero clearance (ZC) fireplace. Think of them as stoves in an additional steel box that allows air convection around the firebox. Those can be installed with minimal clearances to combustibles and some models can have ducts added to deliver heat to other rooms of the house. There are many models on the market. With such a large home you probably want to look for a firebox size of at least 3 cu ft even for your milder winters. Some units to consider: KozyHeat Z42, Pacific Energy FP30, FireplaceXtraordinaire Elite 36 or 44, Heat & Glo Northstar, Valcourt FP9. Superior fireplaces has several models: http://superiorfireplaces.us.com/products/t/superior-wood-burning-fireplaces look for the ones that say EPA-certified. Another company with several options would be RSF: http://www.icc-rsf.com/en/rsf-woodburning-fireplaces
I would look at the stove reviews (https://www.hearth.com/talk/link-forums/stove-reviews.35/) and do a forum search to read about experiences with specific models. However, we don't see a whole lot of them here.

As for the basement stove: Will the basement be finished? Jotul is certainly a well-liked brand here but so are others. A rough floorplan and some idea about your preferred design, anticipated usage, budget etc. will be helpful.

Be aware that any modern stove/fireplace absolutely requires dry wood with less than 20% internal moisture to work well. That usually requires splitting and stacking the wood for up to three years with lots of wind and sun exposure. While building the home I recommend to get the wood set up or you won't do much burning your first winter there.

 

[ky_dave]

Thanks for the replies. As for the basement most of it will be unfinished.

Another question is regarding the chimney / flue. We were going to have our mason build the chimney with the 2 clay tile flues but the local fireplace store says we can't use those, we need an insert made of stainless steel. Is that correct or a sales ploy?

thanks,
Dave

 

[Grisu]

Another question is regarding the chimney / flue. We were going to have our mason build the chimney with the 2 clay tile flues but the local fireplace store says we can't use those, we need an insert made of stainless steel. Is that correct or a sales ploy?

When you get a ZC fireplace like the ones I mentioned you will need to follow the installation requirements from the manufacturer. I am not aware of one that allows venting into a masonry chimney but there may be. However, installing a stainless steel chimney will be way easier, cheaper, and safer.

If budget is not much of an issue have you looked into a (custom made) masonry heater? http://www.mha-net.org/html/gallery.htm Their efficiencies are close to a modern stove and it will be a focal point of your home.

Thanks for the replies. As for the basement most of it will be unfinished.

An unfinished basement of that size will need a huge stove since you may easily lose 1/3 of the heat to the surrounding ground. Do you want to heat the entire area or just a part of it? Will that stove burn 24/7 or only occasionally?

 

[ky_dave]

When you get a ZC fireplace like the ones I mentioned you will need to follow the installation requirements from the manufacturer. I am not aware of one that allows venting into a masonry chimney but there may be. However, installing a stainless steel chimney will be way easier, cheaper, and safer.

If budget is not much of an issue have you looked into a (custom made) masonry heater? http://www.mha-net.org/html/gallery.htm Their efficiencies are close to a modern stove and it will be a focal point of your home.


An unfinished basement of that size will need a huge stove since you may easily lose 1/3 of the heat to the surrounding ground. Do you wan to heat the entire area or just a part of it? Will that stove burn 24/7 or only occasionally?

I just want to heat a portion of the basement and will only use it occasionally. as for the stainless steel chimney, I assume you are talking about taking the stainless steel pipes through the roof? the masons are building a rather large block chimney / flue in the basement to support the first floor fireplace and then a stone chimney in the family room, where the fireplace will be, up to the top of the vaulted ceiling. I hadn't thought about taking the stone work through the roof but rather assumed that is how it is done. Our previous house had stone work above the roof to the cap.

I must say, this has been way harder than picking the appliances!!

thanks,
Dave

 

[Grisu]

At which stage of your home construction are you? Are the masons already building the fireplace or are you describing what you are anticipating?

Building a full masonry fireplace is pretty expensive and essentially an unnecessary expense if you want to install an insert anyway. If you want the look of a fireplace AND heat you would install a zero clearance fireplace. The look will essentially be the same if not more refined for a fraction of the cost. Here is a pic of the KozyHeat Z42 as an example:

If you install an insert into a masonry fireplace with masonry chimney you will need to connect it to an insulated stainless steel liner that matches the flue outlet (usually 6") of the insert. A full masonry chimney has been the way it was done. Since insulated stainless steel chimney is now available that costs far less it is rare to build a full chimney. You can still enclose the pipe in a chase that will give the impression of a masonry chimney. See here: http://www.barnhillchimney.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/chasecoverparts-300x225.jpg

 

[bholler]

I just want to heat a portion of the basement and will only use it occasionally. as for the stainless steel chimney, I assume you are talking about taking the stainless steel pipes through the roof? the masons are building a rather large block chimney / flue in the basement to support the first floor fireplace and then a stone chimney in the family room, where the fireplace will be, up to the top of the vaulted ceiling. I hadn't thought about taking the stone work through the roof but rather assumed that is how it is done. Our previous house had stone work above the roof to the cap.

We are saying it will cost much less if you dont have the masons build a masonry structure at all. Put in a high efficiency zero clearance unit vented through a prefab chimney and vent the stove downstairs through a seperate prefab chimney. Then frame out a chase and finish it how ever you want stone brick stucco drywall ect. It will cost allot less and work much better. But to answer your question no you dont need to use a stainless liner but the clay needs to be sized for the unit you are installing and stainless will work much better

 

[Grisu]

Here is the thread of a former member who describes in much detail how he installed his ZC fireplace: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/building-the-hearth-for-my-napoleon-nz3000-what-a-quest.74273/

 

[ky_dave]

At which stage of your home construction are you? Are the masons already building the fireplace or are you describing what you are anticipating?

Building a full masonry fireplace is pretty expensive and essentially an unnecessary expense if you want to install an insert anyway. If you want the look of a fireplace AND heat you would install a zero clearance fireplace. The look will essentially be the same if not more refined for a fraction of the cost. Here is a pic of the KozyHeat Z42 as an example:

If you install an insert into a masonry fireplace with masonry chimney you will need to connect it to an insulated stainless steel liner that matches the flue outlet (usually 6") of the insert. A full masonry chimney has been the way it was done. Since insulated stainless steel chimney is now available that costs far less it is rare to build a full chimney. You can still enclose the pipe in a chase that will give the impression of a masonry chimney. See here: http://www.barnhillchimney.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/chasecoverparts-300x225.jpg

Our masons haven't started yet as the building crew is putting on the ceiling rafters. It will be a couple of more weeks before the masons start work on laying the natural stone on the outside of the house.

As for looks, it would be nice, but i'm more concerned with functionality and usability. One thing that I find extremely disconcerting is the prices and how these are priced. Many companies have a price listed but don't include doors, insulation, etc. Kind of like buying a car but not getting an engine or doors or tires.

Thanks on the chimney, that kind of what I was thinking with the chase and the SS liners.

thanks,
Dave

 

[Grisu]

As for looks, it would be nice, but i'm more concerned with functionality and usability.

What exactly are you concerns? A ZC fireplace is as functional and usable as a fireplace insert and offers even some additional benefits (such as outside air supply and ducting to other rooms). Since the masons have not started yet I suggest getting some more info about the different options available to avoid unnecessary expenses and/or ending up with an inferior installation.

One thing that I find extremely disconcerting is the prices and how these are priced. Many companies have a price listed but don't include doors, insulation, etc. Kind of like buying a car but not getting an engine or doors or tires.

It is rather similar to buying a car: What you see is the basic model and then there are several options available to accommodate the buyer's taste and particular installation. There is no way around contacting the different stove shops and getting a quote for your particular situation.

Thanks on the chimney, that kind of what I was thinking with the chase and the SS liners.

Just to get the terminology right: A liner goes into a masonry chimney built according to all building codes and with the required clearances. In a simple chase you install proper class A chimney pipe with 2" clearance to combustibles. Do you have the help of a reputable stove shop/installer? Asking a certified chimney sweep in your area for advice may not be a bad idea. Here you can look for one: http://www.csia.org/search

 

[begreen]

As for looks, it would be nice, but i'm more concerned with functionality and usability.

If looks are not a primary concern and functionality is, consider putting a freestanding Blaze King King Ultra on each floor.

 

[ky_dave]

If looks are not a primary concern and functionality is, consider putting a freestanding Blaze King King Ultra on each floor.

I guess I should have clarified that statement. Looks as far as a fireplace or insert. I'm Ok with both but don't want a freestanding stove in the family room.

thanks,
Dave

 

[bholler]

if your masons are coming in a few weeks you need to decide what you are doing now. you will need time for change orders ect

 

[bholler]

Our masons haven't started yet as the building crew is putting on the ceiling rafters. It will be a couple of more weeks before the masons start work on laying the natural stone on the outside of the house.

What is in the plans? If you where planning on a masonry fireplace the foundation should already be in and possibly the hearth floor and extension slab. It may cost you quite a bit to change the plans now

 

[Grisu]

Looks as far as a fireplace or insert.

Those can look pretty much the same depending how you finish the outside. With an insert you will have the surround to cover the fireplace cavity which you won't have with the ZC fireplace. Is there anything about the fireplace in the picture I posted above that you don't like the look of? Knowing better what you are actually looking for will help in suggesting suitable options.

 

[begreen]

I guess I should have clarified that statement. Looks as far as a fireplace or insert. I'm Ok with both but don't want a freestanding stove in the family room.

Traditional styled
http://www.quadrafire.com/Products/7100-Wood-Fireplace.aspx
http://www.fireplacex.com/ProductGuide/ProductDetail.aspx?modelsku=98500113
http://www.icc-rsf.com/en/opel-3-fireplace
http://astria.us.com/products/montecito-estate (also known as the BIS Tradition)
Contemporary styled:
http://www.icc-rsf.com/en/focus-st-fireplace

 

[ky_dave]

I like the looks for the fireplace xtraordinaire, superior, and quadrafire. I believe a ZC fireplace will work for us. The space where the fireplace will go is 60" wide by 37" deep. Also sounds like we can build the chase our of lumber instead of masonry as long as we keep a 2" clearance.

We only have 2 dealers in our area and I have zero experience so I am a little cautious / weary of everything they are telling me. Just want to make sure that my money is spent wisely and not buy something that we will not be happy with.

thanks,
Dave

 

[begreen]

I would skip the masonry entirely except for a masonry or stone facade if that is desired. Sounds like you might have room to run up a 6" chimney for the basement up the chase too.

 

[Grisu]

I like the looks for the fireplace xtraordinaire, superior, and quadrafire.

Glad you like some of the units and the larger ones should definitively work for you (although I would not expect miracles based on the space you want to heat). You can try a forum search to see if an actual owner posted some info about one of the fireplaces. A new thread with the particular models in the title may also yield some responses.

Also sounds like we can build the chase our of lumber instead of masonry as long as we keep a 2" clearance.

Indeed, and it should be quite a bit cheaper than building a full masonry chimney. Make sure to follow the clearance requirements of the particular pipe you are installing although the 2" is pretty universal. Nevertheless, it's minimum clearance; never hurts to exceed it and a wider chase will make future repairs/replacements easier.

We only have 2 dealers in our area and I have zero experience so I am a little cautious / weary of everything they are telling me. Just want to make sure that my money is spent wisely and not buy something that we will not be happy with.

You can always come back and ask your questions. Or get an independent certified chimney sweep for your install which can then also serve as your consultant. Some sell stoves/fireplaces on the side but you should be able to find one that is impartial: http://www.csia.org/search

 

[ky_dave]

Thanks. I found a guy with CSIA in Bowling Green KY and have sent him an email and text.

I've spent most of the past couple of days researching and think I have it down to FPX Elite 44, Superior WCT6840, and the HeatnGlo Northstar. Seems that all 3 are priced right together and I never imagined that a fireplace would cost $4500. But if they are as efficient as advertised, they should have an ROI of about 3 yrs.

I've spent less time on the basement stove. My folks have an old pilgram stove and would love to have one but no chance in finding one. I've looked at the Buck Little John and the Lopi Liberty. The basement looks like a bowling alley right now, roughly 77x52. We plan to have a home theater, bathroom and maybe a pool table and bar, but don't have a lot of plans for it.

thanks,
Dave

 

[begreen]

Two of those 3 choices are large fireplaces. Of those the Northstar is the smallest fireplace at 2.7 cu ft. In between would be the Quadrafire at 3.4 cu ft.

 

[ky_dave]

Two of those 3 choices are large fireplaces. Of those the Northstar is the smallest fireplace at 2.7 cu ft. In between would be the Quadrafire at 3.4 cu ft.

You mentioned earlier that I should look at a wood furnace for the basement, do you have any recommendations on those?

thanks,
Dave

 

[begreen]

Max Caddy, Kuuma
http://www.psg-distribution.com/product.aspx?Id=563&CategoId=16
http://www.lamppakuuma.com/kuuma-vapor-fire-100-high-efficiency-wood-gasification-furnace.html

 

[Grisu]

If you only want to heat the finished part of the basement a stove may be enough. How many sqft would that be?

Of course, the furnace would have the advantage that you can potentially tie it into your heating system and heat your entire home with wood from just one location.