Pacific Energy stove question -- Israel...

[Avi]

hey all,
New to the site and writing from Israel.

Will be heating a roughly 1,600 square foot space solely with wood -- and was considering a few ovens -- am leaning towards the Pacific Energy Super 27 which is now available here ...

My question is wood: There is little hardwood available in Israel, the forest right around the house is all pine and cedar -- and I can get eucalyptus and some harder citrus woods, but that is the extent of it. I currently have about 2 cubic meters of eucalyptus on have that has been drying for about 1.5 years -- and expect to need about another 1.5 to 2 cubes for the winter ... I can cut and dry softwood for next season, but there is not a real wood-burning culture here, so if I go ahead and order some more eucalyptus for this year, even if its supposedly 'dry' - have no real guarantees on what that means ...

..I've heard that the new stoves need really dry wood to operate properly ... will burning wood that is not altogether dry really affect stove output to the degree that I should consider a more traditional stove?

The only traditional cast iron stove in the Super 27's price range is the Royal Godin 1 - and I've heard mixed things and it only puts out 15kw max as opposed to the PE's 21 kw ... once you get into DRU, Nestor Martin, Vermont Castings, Jotul, etc...the price for a stove that size jumps by $600 or more...

The budget jump is unrealistic for us, and it also seems like the Super 27 is a great stove. I will be running about 4 meters of flue - so around 12 feet -- which should be enough -- so again, wood is really the question...

Thanks - and sorry for such a wordy post.
Avi

 

[bfitz3]

I've only burned wood for one season, so I'm not an expert. But, I will say that I saw a marked difference in performance with wood that was definitely <20% moisture. Some of my wood was ~25% and tended to smolder rather than burn.

Also... Three cheers for metric, if only we could change systems!

 

[Lake Girl]

Just wanted to say welcome to the forum! I know moisture content on fresh splits should be the 20% range for burning with a catalytic so I would recommend getting a moisture meter. You may be struggling this year to get the wood you need. Do they have biobricks or similar in your locale? Some of the woodburners here use them with their wood splits to supplement the wood they have. Pine does tend to dry a bit quicker but also burns quicker and hotter due to the resins in the wood. What seasonal temps do you get?

It is a holiday weekend here ... last one of the summer. Be patient and the woodburners will be along to help (I have a pellet stove!).

 

[Sprinter]

will burning wood that is not altogether dry really affect stove output to the degree that I should consider a more traditional stove?

Welcome to the forums Avi
The Super 27 is what I have. It and nearly any other modern stove is designed for optimum operation for wood that is around 20% moisture content as measured by the "dry method". You would need to buy a moisture meter (look on Amazon for the 2-pin type) to determine the moisture content. They all use the "dry method" for calculation. You want to go for 20% ideally, but could get by with 25% if necessary. It may take up to a year (maybe less) to dry the type of wood you are considering.

It's well worth storing up and drying one year's worth of wood if necessary to use the modern efficient stoves like the Super 27. As Lake Girl above mentioned, you may be able to get some manufactured dense product there to supplement or use the first year.

From what you have said, it sounds like the Super 27 model would be right for you as long as you can "feed" it the wood it needs.

Pine and cedar will work okay, and actually dries pretty quickly (maybe less than 6 months if cut and stacked well). It's not the "best", but will work. You'll just need to use a little more than some denser hardwoods. The quick drying properties of pine or cedar is actually an advantage to you just starting out. I think pine will produce a little more BTU of heat than cedar, but both will burn fine in the 27. I have no idea about eucalyptus. I think you'll be fine with the 27.

When you get the moisture meter, split a round in half and measure the inside face to get the reading you need.

 

[Sprinter]

Also... Three cheers for metric, if only we could change systems!

Amen.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Burn the wood you have. Don't stress about the species. The dryer the wood is, the better. Most of us didn't start with dry wood the first year. Its part of the learning curve. Keep an eye on the chimney and make sure it's clean.

 

[NJ_Burner08002]

Burn it all. But clean it every year.

 

[PA_Forester]

Avi, how close are you to the coast in Israel? The typical humidity in Israel isn't low enough to guarantee you can easily source low-moisture woods (or can quickly dry the wood you have in stock). But, go with the better and more modern stove, you won't regret the decision.
Work on improving your current wood store and try to find stuff that isn't rotted/punky. The 2m^2 eucalyptus is a great start and at 1.5 years, if you've stacked and split it well, should be quite dry. Get one of the 2-pin moisture meters (no need to spend a lot of money on a fancy model) mentioned above and check the moisture content inside a freshly split piece.
Try to experiment with the citrus. You may be pleased with this dense hardwood and perhaps you'll find yourself using it overnight or for the coldest nights.
Also work on getting and drying some pine and cedar. They're great for starting fires, having quick fires to warm your house, or for the seasons when you don't need too much heat. If split small and stacked well (in an open, somewhat airy or sunny spot), they'll probably dry quickly, especially during your driest seasons.

Good luck and keep us posted with your progress. Be sure to spend some extra time gathering wood in you first year or two. Once you're ahead, you'll never be short on dry, ready to burn, wood.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

A solar kiln could be used to dry a batch of wood for use if space allows.

 

[JA600L]

12ft of chimney is very short. Most stoves recommend 15 ft minimum.

 

[Sprinter]

12ft of chimney is very short. Most stoves recommend 15 ft minimum.

That's true, but some stoves are better than others that way. My flue is about 13 ft and draws fine with the 27. Avi, the OP, may want to keep that in mind, though, and go as high as practical up to maybe 15' to be sure. I don't think I'd be too comfortable with 12 ft either. It would be easier to do it higher now than try to add on later.

 

[begreen]

It will probably work well. PE stoves are easy breathing. A friend heats his place with a Summit that replaced an Endeavor. They heat with wood exclusively in our milder climate. The Lopi spilled smoke a bit in mild weather due to their short 12' chimney that has a 45 and two 90º turns in it. We installed the stove with double-wall stove pipe to assist draft. The Summit has been heating their place for 5 years now with no problems. The secondary burn is good even when it's 50F outside.

 

[Avi]

hey all,
just about to pull the trigger on either a PE Summit or PE Super 27 - the Pacific Energy stoves are just coming here to Israel - in the past, the main stoves available here were European companies such as Godin, DRU, Nestor Martin, etc...

I know that there are many threads on the choice between Summit and Super 27 - but I would like some advice factoring in a couple of things. Just some general info first - we have one big 81 square meter (about 900 square feet) common area connected by a 6 meter corridor to another 76 meter area where the bedrooms are (so around 1,722 square feet altogether). The common area has 2 good ceiling fans installed in line with the corridor and is fairly well insulated with good windows. The bedroom side is poorly insulated (I'm working on that) but also with pretty good windows (double pane aluminum frame). Temperatures in the winter stay between 20s and 40s but with a lot of wind and rain as we are at relatively high altitude...

The 2 factors I want to consider are:
1. here we have access to softwoods - primarily pine and cedar -- and some harder woods such as eucalyptus and occasionally olive - I will be cutting wood -- but have not done so yet for this year -- often not sure if the wood we buy here is really seasoned or truly dry - but its what is available - usually been sitting for about a year...

2. Since we do not light fire on the Sabbath - in the winter, being able to load up a stove and have it really burn through the night and still provide some heat through the next day is crucial for about 2-3 months of the year.

After doing some research I was all set on the Super 27 -- then went down to the warehouse and saw the Summit -- and said: 'can bigger really hurt'? But don't know how burning small fires in a big box when you're dealing with mostly soft woods or not truly seasoned eucalyptus will work...

What do you all say? Difference in price is 1,000 ILS ($265 USD) more for the Summit. If I don't really need it, and the Summit will cook us out of the common area - I'd rather put that cash towards wood for this season...

Sorry for the longish post - and thanks in advance for any advice you can give...

 

[Avi]

Welcome to the forums Avi
The Super 27 is what I have. It and nearly any other modern stove is designed for optimum operation for wood that is around 20% moisture content as measured by the "dry method". You would need to buy a moisture meter (look on Amazon for the 2-pin type) to determine the moisture content. They all use the "dry method" for calculation. You want to go for 20% ideally, but could get by with 25% if necessary. It may take up to a year (maybe less) to dry the type of wood you are considering.

It's well worth storing up and drying one year's worth of wood if necessary to use the modern efficient stoves like the Super 27. As Lake Girl above mentioned, you may be able to get some manufactured dense product there to supplement or use the first year.

From what you have said, it sounds like the Super 27 model would be right for you as long as you can "feed" it the wood it needs.

Pine and cedar will work okay, and actually dries pretty quickly (maybe less than 6 months if cut and stacked well). It's not the "best", but will work. You'll just need to use a little more than some denser hardwoods. The quick drying properties of pine or cedar is actually an advantage to you just starting out. I think pine will produce a little more BTU of heat than cedar, but both will burn fine in the 27. I have no idea about eucalyptus. I think you'll be fine with the 27.

When you get the moisture meter, split a round in half and measure the inside face to get the reading you need.

Thanks Sprinter - that helps a lot!

 

[Avi]

Avi, how close are you to the coast in Israel? The typical humidity in Israel isn't low enough to guarantee you can easily source low-moisture woods (or can quickly dry the wood you have in stock). But, go with the better and more modern stove, you won't regret the decision.
Work on improving your current wood store and try to find stuff that isn't rotted/punky. The 2m^2 eucalyptus is a great start and at 1.5 years, if you've stacked and split it well, should be quite dry. Get one of the 2-pin moisture meters (no need to spend a lot of money on a fancy model) mentioned above and check the moisture content inside a freshly split piece.
Try to experiment with the citrus. You may be pleased with this dense hardwood and perhaps you'll find yourself using it overnight or for the coldest nights.
Also work on getting and drying some pine and cedar. They're great for starting fires, having quick fires to warm your house, or for the seasons when you don't need too much heat. If split small and stacked well (in an open, somewhat airy or sunny spot), they'll probably dry quickly, especially during your driest seasons.

Good luck and keep us posted with your progress. Be sure to spend some extra time gathering wood in you first year or two. Once you're ahead, you'll never be short on dry, ready to burn, wood.

hey there - we're not that close to the coast, but at high altitude at the high end of a wadi (valley) - on a clear day you can see all the way to the mediteranean and the wind comes off the ocean and travels directly at us -- so we get high winds and lots of rain in the winter (temps generally in the 20s to 40s) and yes, even in the hottest parts of summer when its 98 in the day - our evening are cool and moist (that's why where I live is good grape country) ... thanks for the advice on the wood -- I do think I will invest in a meter for reading moisture...

 

[Avi]

It will probably work well. PE stoves are easy breathing. A friend heats his place with a Summit that replaced an Endeavor. They heat with wood exclusively in our milder climate. The Lopi spilled smoke a bit in mild weather due to their short 12' chimney that has a 45 and two 90º turns in it. We installed the stove with double-wall stove pipe to assist draft. The Summit has been heating their place for 5 years now with no problems. The secondary burn is good even when it's 50F outside.

Hi BeGreen,

I actually just posted a different thread on my choice between a Summit and a Super 27 - I know there a number of threads on that choice - but curious about how our house shape and relatively mild climate would play into the choice. Also the fact that on Fridays and Saturdays (the Sabbath) we do not light fire from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday - so longer burn times become crucial then.

We have 81 square meters of open common space connected to 76 square meters of bedroom/bathroom space by a 6 meter corridor (so about 1,700 square feet). We have 2 good ceiling fans in the common space lined up with the corridor -- but I'm not sure that air will travel well to the bedrooms given the closed layout on that side. Insulation and windowes in the common area is pretty good, while the bedroom area insulation is poor (working on that slowly)...Temps here are generally in the 20s to 40s ...

My gut says that the Super 27 is enough stove -- but my head says go for the bigger summit... but don't want to roast us out of the common area -- in person in looked like a pretty big stove to me...

...and I just want to apologize if responding individually to each post and repeating info. is a breach of etiquette -- I'm new to whole forum thing...

Thanks for any advice you can give.

 

[Avi]

That's true, but some stoves are better than others that way. My flue is about 13 ft and draws fine with the 27. Avi, the OP, may want to keep that in mind, though, and go as high as practical up to maybe 15' to be sure. I don't think I'd be too comfortable with 12 ft either. It would be easier to do it higher now than try to add on later.

I'll make sure to keep that in mind...

 

[Avi]

Just wanted to say welcome to the forum! I know moisture content on fresh splits should be the 20% range for burning with a catalytic so I would recommend getting a moisture meter. You may be struggling this year to get the wood you need. Do they have biobricks or similar in your locale? Some of the woodburners here use them with their wood splits to supplement the wood they have. Pine does tend to dry a bit quicker but also burns quicker and hotter due to the resins in the wood. What seasonal temps do you get?

It is a holiday weekend here ... last one of the summer. Be patient and the woodburners will be along to help (I have a pellet stove!).

in terms of biobricks - one interesting thing we have is pressed bricks made of leaving from the olive pressing industry -- they burn well - but I feel like they give off too much scent for me - olive wood itself is great for burning -- really hard and also fragrant in its own way - but the biobricks are more of an oily scent...

 

[Lake Girl]

Same concept as the biobricks that are manufactured from lumber/flooring operations in North America. While the smell may be too strong, it may be an option to extend your wood stock if you don't have enough in the lower 20's moisture reading. Store them in an outbuilding to minimize the smell in your living space.
As to moving your heat, you may find that fans on the floor in your farther areas, blowing cooler air towards the stove room, will encourage a more efficient convection loop.

 

[buc74]

I just went through the same thing, the Super 27 would have been fine for our home. But when we went looked at them both we bought the Summit. The larger window and the wider fire box is what we liked. The cost was like $400 USD more for the Summit. Plus the Summit is like 120 lbs heavier than the Super, not sure where the extra weight comes from? Our home is about the same size and all brick, but our winters get a little colder in Wisconsin than yours. The thinking was we can always make smaller fires and use softer wood with the Summit as needed. I understand this is not an issue with the Summit, and we are currently doing this in our Buck 74 (2.6 cu. ft.) stove at our vacation home at time without issue, of course dry wood is key here. Time will tell if we made the right call. I feel you'll be fine with either stove.

 

[begreen]

Both sizes will work. We had the same question for our house. Our next door neighbor has the Spectrum in an old 1600 sq ft farmhouse that is one year older than ours and it works great. We tend to burn more 24/7 then they do and have more glass area in our 2000 sq ft house so I went for the larger stove. No regrets. Our floorplan is open and the T6 heats the place very evenly with winter temps that are also usually in the 20-40ºF range (though we do get into the teens sometime).

The Super will be a bit more efficient with smaller loads of fuel. It has great burn times and is right sized for the 20-40 degree range. The Summit will have more reserve heating power for very cold weather. To avoid overheating burn smaller loads of wood and/or burn a wood that has lower btu content. Either stove will burn fine on a load of four of five 3-4" splits.

 

[Texas123]

Since one goal is Torah compliance, have you looked at the Blaze King stoves which can hold embers for between 30 to 40 hours based on the final pre candle light wood loadings?

 

[begreen]

Are they sold and serviced in Israel?

 

[Avi]

Are they sold and serviced in Israel?

First of all thanks to you all for the comments and for sharing your experiences - everything was really on point and helpful ... Blaze King is not available in Israel as far as I know -- the only other N. American stoves that I have seen here is Vermont Castings -- I will speak to my wife and we will make a decision within the next week here, so I will keep you posted ... also, I went ahead and ordered a moisture meter today, so at least I'll know what I'm getting as far as wood goes -- I also started clearing out a large insulated tent space that used to be our kitchen (we lived out here in a tent for 3 years with our 5 girls before finally building our house in stages over the last 2.5 years) to use a a wood storage space -- should keep things dry in the cold / wet months and I cans store what I cut this season before putting it out to really dry in the spring and summer... again - thanks for the advice and warm welcome!

 

[ohlongarm]

12ft of chimney is very short. Most stoves recommend 15 ft minimum.

BK'S minimum 12 feet,no problems that I know of,but 3 feet of insulated added on would be nice.