Hearth extension is not supported nor attached?

[EbS-P]

Why do you “ need” a code compliant masonry fireplace? I’d abandon the fireplace, condemn it for a fireplace and figure out how to support what’s there and add a free standing stove in some way. Doing it that way you could support what’s there with timber and not make a bigger project. Just my two cents.

 

[Ctwoodtick]

While the houses I generally work on are ~200 years older than yours, I've gotten myself into many similar projects, where the focus on rebuilding is so strong you can sometimes forget to step back and consider whether something different would have been better all along. The old "seeing the forrest from the trees" scenario.

If an insert in a fireplace really is your end goal, then carry on. But you might also consider this an opportunity to just blow this whole thing up and go to a freestanding stove in front of a brick wall. It would certainly perform better, give you more options, give you back more space, and might even look better.

Agree 100 percent. Who know what else was built poorly on this thing.

 

[TomasB]

While the houses I generally work on are ~200 years older than yours, I've gotten myself into many similar projects, where the focus on rebuilding is so strong you can sometimes forget to step back and consider whether something different would have been better all along. The old "seeing the forrest from the trees" scenario.

If an insert in a fireplace really is your end goal, then carry on. But you might also consider this an opportunity to just blow this whole thing up and go to a freestanding stove in front of a brick wall. It would certainly perform better, give you more options, give you back more space, and might even look better.

Not really an option, there is a gas fireplace downstairs, in the basement.

 

[begreen]

Based on the discovery so far I think it's safe to assume that the shoddy workmanship continues right up to the chimney top. I would be considering complete removal and replacement with a ZC fireplace or making an alcove for a freestanding stove with a new metal chimney system. My guess is that clearances to the firebox and chimney are incorrect too. Given the poor shape of the brickwork, the fireplace removal could go pretty quickly, working top down from the chimney.

 

[TomasB]

Based on the discovery so far I think it's safe to assume that the shoddy workmanship continues right up to the chimney top. I would be considering complete removal and replacement with a ZC fireplace or making an alcove for a freestanding stove with a new metal chimney system. My guess is that clearances to the firebox and chimney are incorrect too. Given the poor shape of the brickwork, the fireplace removal could go pretty quickly, working top down from the chimney.

I will let the mason decide who will see what can be done.
Our preference is to avoid blowing this into re-building the whole house thing.

Update: back of the fireplace hearth is gone. BTW, noticed that the first row of cement blocks have different color from the row above. As well, the mortar in the very first row above opening feels different from the row of bricks above, 2nd row.
The 1st row is all loose, mortar is sandy, falls apart when I rub with a finger, while the 2nd row is solid, not cracked nor moving at all, and the mortar is cured very well.
The first row is supported by a flat bar, not steel angle lintel, I don't like it, I can see it's sagging, since the 1st row is completely detached from the 2nd row, the only thing that is holding it in place is that flat bar at the bottom:
BTW, there is some sort of flat bar at the back of the 2nd row as well. I think I will consider replacing the very bottom flat bar with a steel angle lintel, and rebuilding the 1st row.
Which brings me to the fact that the hearth sidewalls of the hearth play some structural role. Except that workmanship suck.
I'm not a mason, but I could have done a better job with my eyes closed - look at those holes there between cement blocks, and fire bricks:

That means I can't just remove them, and will be waiting for the mason to come over and see what the actual plan of attack is.

BTW, before you panic that I might cause a collapse - I'm removing the things that are either loose, and/or are not supporting anything. And so, if we proceed addressing the 1st row, we will build some support for the 2nd row, even though the 1st row isn't even supporting it.

 

[Ctwoodtick]

When is the mason coming?

 

[TomasB]

When is the mason coming?

Coming Monday. The state of, I expect, all fireplaces in the neighborhood is scary. People don't even know. Cause, "if it's not broken, don't fix it" attitude. I don't think my fireplace is anything out of ordinary compared to others around. I expect to start hearing fireplaces collapsing in a 10-15 year span, especially, if someone installs an insert without checking the state of the fireplace floor. Houses are built around 50ies or 60ies.

 

[Ctwoodtick]

Coming Monday. The state of, I expect, all fireplaces in the neighborhood is scary. People don't even know. Cause, "if it's not broken, don't fix it" attitude. I don't think my fireplace is anything out of ordinary compared to others around. I expect to start hearing fireplaces collapsing in a 10-15 year span, especially, if someone installs an insert without checking the state of the fireplace floor. Houses are built around 50ies or 60ies.

Sad that workmanship can all be as good as some. Good luck Monday, I’ll be curious how it goes.

 

[TomasB]

Sad that workmanship can all be as good as some. Good luck Monday, I’ll be curious how it goes.

I was lucky to stumble on someone, Paul, who has straight 5 starts reviews on google, 40+ of them, and while he couldn't take the job (the distance, and availability), he recommended another mason, his friend.
Paul gave me an estimate, based on pictures I was sending him, and supported me over email quite a bit with advice. 🤞
That encouraged me to proceed with a cleanup, so that once the other mason, Sam, comes over, at least he has a better idea what we will be dealing with.

 

[Supersurvey]

Could you fill the ash dump with gravel or something lite weight?

 

[TomasB]

Could you fill the ash dump with gravel or something lite weight?

Thinking outside of firebox... ba-dum-pshh!

It's rather a large volume to fill, though. Nonetheless, really interesting thought.

 

[Ashful]

Thinking outside of firebox... ba-dum-pshh!

It's rather a large volume to fill, though. Nonetheless, really interesting thought.

Not saying it's the way to go, but if it solves a problem, I wouldn't let the volume be an obstacle. I've moved three 10-ton dump truck loads worth of 2B stone in the last week. You can handle one fireplace. Figure about 93 lb./cu.ft.

 

[SpaceBus]

I would remove all of the masonry. You don't want it to turn into a whole house rebuild, but it might become one if the chimney falls down.

 

[begreen]

I'm not a mason, but I could have done a better job with my eyes closed - look at those holes there between cement blocks, and fire bricks:

I would remove all of the masonry. You don't want it to turn into a whole house rebuild, but it might become one if the chimney falls down.

That was my conclusion. Peace of mind knowing a job as important as this was done right is priceless. I came to this juncture in our house in 2006. An 80 yr old, home-built fireplace that had gone through a few earthquakes was not something I could trust. It was a dusty job, but it came out pretty easily. Replace it with a ZC fireplace or freestanding stove.

 

[Ctwoodtick]

Did the mason come?

 

[TomasB]

Did the mason come?

Yes indeed, he came over yesterday.
He suggested removing firebox, hearth, floor, pouring a slab, and rebuilding firebox.
That would come at 6500+ tax.
In addition, cap + flashing at the roof - that would be another 2500+tax.

A bit much? Well, at least I'm still feeling the pain of sticker shock. Basically, 10k
At least he didn't suggest to get rid of it.

 

[bholler]

Yes indeed, he came over yesterday.
He suggested removing firebox, hearth, floor, pouring a slab, and rebuilding firebox.
That would come at 6500+ tax.
In addition, cap + flashing at the roof - that would be another 2500+tax.

A bit much? Well, at least I'm still feeling the pain of sticker shock. Basically, 10k

$6500 is cheap for the internal work. $2500 might be a little high

 

[TomasB]

Replace it with a ZC fireplace or freestanding stove.

I think I mentioned earlier, there is a gas fireplace in the basement.

 

[TomasB]

$6500 is cheap for the internal work. $2500 might be a little high

I appreciate the feedback. Here is some nastiness from the above:

 

[bholler]

I appreciate the feedback. Here is some nastiness from the above:
View attachment 313569View attachment 313570View attachment 313571View attachment 313572

Ok that needs atleast a roof line up rebuild

 

[Ctwoodtick]

I’m no pro but even I could tell that those bricks (and the mortar) are in some bad shape. Did the mason even mention this stuff?

 

[TomasB]

I’m no pro but even I could tell that those bricks (and the mortar) are in some bad shape. Did the mason even mention this stuff?

In the quote, he said he would repoint, fix flashing, and put a cap.
BTW, once those bricks are cleaned from paint, they would be quite ok, imo, except for those corner ones, that have crumbled corners.
In the picture they do look terrible, because of discoloration and peeling paint, and moss.
Not argue, though, that they should be left as they are right now. Yikes!
If he would end-up rebuilding the top part of that chimney, I will not say no to that.

 

[begreen]

I think I mentioned earlier, there is a gas fireplace in the basement.

Can the gas fireplace be alternatively vented with a metal liner or out the sill?

My concern is that even with the proposed repairs, the in-between chimney mortar and installation is suspect. Are there 2" clearances from the chimney to any combustible up through the roof? Or 1" if exterior?

 

[bigealta]

You can get a cheap endoscope on ebay or elsewhere and drop it down the chimney to check the flue for cracks. missing mortar etc. This way if it's bad you know what you have to do. If it's good then u can keep the conversation going i guess.

 

[TomasB]

Can the gas fireplace be alternatively vented with a metal liner or out the sill?

My concern is that even with the proposed repairs, the in-between chimney mortar and installation is suspect. Are there 2" clearances from the chimney to any combustible up through the roof? Or 1" if exterior?

Do you suggest going through the neighborhood and demoing each and every fireplace because none of them have 1" spacing?

Besides, the fireplace upstairs, has an additional roughing wall that is separating firebox from outside wall,

Besides #2: once the insert is in, how many more walls are there for the fire to breach?

So, really, I'm not going to lose any sleep over this.