Chimney designed to burn Creosote

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greythorn3

greythorn3

Minister of Fire
Oct 8, 2007
1,002
Alaska
wheelordie.com
Now when will they design a chimney that says "bring on the Creosote!" we can handle it! something that will leave everyone at ease with woodburning. heck maybe even make chimney brushes useless.

why do you have chimneys designed to be so fragile that if there happens to be a FIRE in them your house will burn down? doesnt make much sense to me.

how about some chimneys that are drilling pipe with 1" wall thickness of pure steel. and then wrap a liner around that and another pipe around that? seamless solid cut to length chimney. seems like it would be allot smarter. then youcould do the old timer thing and beat the inside with a loggin chain to get the big chunks out. and use them as firestarters.


our class a now may be ul listed an such, but i have little faith in it and would like a better product.

these manufacturers know the worst thing about a chimney is a chimney fire. so why dont they make the chimneys so they can handle one?
 
first company to make a real chimney i will buy it and replace all my chimneys with it. and run my class a over with my truck.
 
So much easier and makes more sense to burn wood in such a way that you don't have the creosote problem to begin with.
 
as a welder I have thought the same thing and probably will for my shop stove. ie. build my own chimney with steel pipe fron the scrap pile. I could build it for pretty much free with long drops welded together with bevel ground conections that would pass for gas main. The welds would be more solid than the pipe wall and you could burn it hot.

On the practical note I imagine cost is the biggest road block. At the cost of Class A per 3' I imagine your Class A+ would be close to 10x per foot and this does not include the cost of crane hours to set them in one piece. The pipe alone would be in the 20lbs+ per foot range and this does not include the insulation and second pipe wrap. Not real practical for the average home owner.

For someone with access to a crane, all things welding and at least the inner heavy pipe on the real cheap - it would be do-able I think.
 
Yes, we have a couple of folks near here that has built their own chimneys. Super heavy stuff! Definitely need a crane to put up. Not sure about cleaning if they've had to or not.
 
Maybe they could design a SS liner with sensors that would activate an extinguisher type canister to put out a fire if the liner reached 1500 degrees or something.
 
Creosote expands many times its thickness when ignited, it could cause a bad blockage in the chimney. Even if the chimney could withstand a bad chimney fire, the things around the chimney may not. A nice flaming ball of creosote on a roof could be a recipe for disaster. I knew a local sawmill that had a bullet proof chimney made of heavy well casing that burned to the ground during a chimney fire. The casing was outside and a foot or more off the building. For those that burn out their chimneys it's like Russian Roulette, eventually their luck will run out.
 
I went with Excel, check them out. It seems there’s a lot more to a chimney. The sales guy at my local stove store sold me on the stuff and said he toured the factory but wasn't allowed to see any part of how they pack the insulation.

Maybe I will never have a fire but at least its good peace of mind and if I do, there's plenty of time for the fire dept to get to my house before it becomes a real problem.


http://www.icc-rsf.com/en/icc/insulated-stainless-steel-chimney
 
Probably because chimney fires are supposed to be the exception, not the norm. I have complete faith that my setup can handle a chimney fire. My worry is the shingles on the roof catching fire.
Besides, by the time my chimney got the amount of buildup that would start a fire, there would be a ton of smoke spilling everytime I opened the door to load the stove. If I even get a wisp of smoke when reloading, it's time to brush the flu. Usually every 6 weeks or so, but this year (with well seasoned wood) I haven't had to sweep yet. Been burning since the week of Thanksgiving.
 
I'll build you one, but I bet you won't like the cost. It won't be certified either, but if you really need some sort of certification, I'll get you that too, for an extra charge of course. :coolsmirk:

It all comes down to cost. Current class A chimneys cost so much to manufacture and they come with a certain certification (which also cost money) that show they are engineered to safely handle the environment they were designed to work in (and more). They could certainly be designed, built, and certified to handle a lot more, but very few would ever be sold for home use, thus they could never become cost effective for the home owner.
In Fact I'm sure they are already commercially available for industrial use, try a search for incinerator chimneys.
 
Not all house fires caused by a chimney fire are the result of the chimney failing, but rather the crap that gets spewed from the chimney igniting parts of the house.

pen
 
sebring said:
Maybe they could design a SS liner with sensors that would activate an extinguisher type canister to put out a fire if the liner reached 1500 degrees or something.
Click to expand...

i dont think adding a bandaid to a flawed product is a good idea, i say redesign it totally. at least offer it in longer lengths so its seamless. and thicken up the metal some.



laynes69 said:
Creosote expands many times its thickness when ignited, it could cause a bad blockage in the chimney. Even if the chimney could withstand a bad chimney fire, the things around the chimney may not. A nice flaming ball of creosote on a roof could be a recipe for disaster. I knew a local sawmill that had a bullet proof chimney made of heavy well casing that burned to the ground during a chimney fire. The casing was outside and a foot or more off the building. For those that burn out their chimneys it's like Russian Roulette, eventually their luck will run out.
Click to expand...

instead of cleaning you burn it hot cause the chimney can handle it, before it gets outa control.


just because you can buy something and its ul rated, doesnt mean its the best idea. I believe in improvement. and i want to see a chimney people can feel safe to use and not have to clean like a crack addict or be super worried about the moisture content of the wood. if the wood dont light dont burn it.
 
^ Now that seems like a pretty good idea, if you can't or won't get up on the roof with a brush. ^

Might even work like they say it does, too.
 
i was just thinking of what type chimney they must use in crematorys. wonder if its like a kiln chimney.
 
The answer is simple, cost. And there would be a bunch of folks here griping about it. The market is just too small.

That said, Canadian standards are pretty stiff and Excel pipe meets them. Unless you want to build custom, it's the probably the best bet.
 
I think the Class A pipe is fine the way it is. The thing that a lot of people don't want to deal with is the cleaning of the flue, which is easy in most cases. As another poster pointed out, you could have a bulletproof chimney and if it had a fire and a hunk of that molten creasote came out and landed on your roof, yer screwed anyway! Bottom line is this, if you regularly keep your chimney and your woodburning components clean, and burn seasoned wood, you shouldn't ever have to worry about a chimney fire. Just knowing I am giving that flue pipe and stove a good cleaning (and an inspection) once every one and a half months is piece of mind for me and my family
 
Scotty Overkill said:
I think the Class A pipe is fine the way it is. The thing that a lot of people don't want to deal with is the cleaning of the flue, which is easy in most cases. As another poster pointed out, you could have a bulletproof chimney and if it had a fire and a hunk of that molten creasote came out and landed on your roof, yer screwed anyway! Bottom line is this, if you regularly keep your chimney and your woodburning components clean, and burn seasoned wood, you shouldn't ever have to worry about a chimney fire. Just knowing I am giving that flue pipe and stove a good cleaning (and an inspection) once every one and a half months is piece of mind for me and my family
Click to expand...

i want a pipe i dont have to worry about , one i can leave the wife buring with and not have to worry for years at a time, like a gas waterheater pipe. see how they are maint free, be allot better and allot less peoples houses burning down i guarentee it.
 
I agree, almost 100%, but greythorn is in a totally extreme situation, especially this year. Creosote formation at -50F has got to be a whole different animal than at 25F. With temps that cold, all system are stressed, including the chimney. Fortunately this is not a mass market problem. But it does leave me thinking about how hard it is to cope with a winter like they are having this year in AK.
 
BeGreen said:
I agree, almost 100%, but greythorn is in a totally extreme situation, especially this year. Creosote formation at -50F has got to be a whole different animal than at 25F. With temps that cold, all system are stressed, including the chimney. Fortunately this is not a mass market problem. But it does leave me thinking about how hard it is to cope with a winter like they are having this year in AK.
Click to expand...

Good point.

If it were me dealing with this situation, I'd buy the excel chimney that meets the Canadian specs, and install it inside the dwelling, up and out. If it has to be on the outside, then I'd put it in an insulated chase (put R-30 in the thing if you want) with all parts including insulation meeting the clearance to combustibles spec.

But again, that would just reduce the chance of a build-up. Obviously, good burning practices would help as well. As I mentioned before, what concerns me is the idea of no maintenance. I can see being able to reduce maintenance and worry, but it simply can't go away. The top of that chimney is always going to be the weakest link in that stuff has to exit, if that stuff happens to be burning creosote, I hope you have a steel roof and I hope that none of it fall down on a wood porch, a pile of leaves next to the house 30 feet away, etc, etc.

I had a friend who ended up having a chimney fire in an Outside Wood Boiler. His garage was 50 feet away and burnt down.

If you try and use a cap with smaller holes in it to reduce the size of burning particulate matter that could exit, then that would very possibly increase maintenance. If you use a cap with no or larger holes then the risk I mentioned exists.

Bottom line, I don't think there is a way to make these things completely fool proof. All you can every do is build it so that the odds are reduced. With that said, done right, I'd still prefer the best UL tested product over a homemade unit if it were my home in this situation. Just install it in a manner that would increase the already good standards that a premium UL product has.

I think building a chimney out of thicker steel could hurt the process because thicker steel, even if insulated, is going to take a longer time to heat up than thinner steel will and would thereby increase the risk of creosote formation. If the thinner steel and insulating layer can protect your home from a chimney fire by directly entering the structure, your fault is still in the exit and for the life of me, I can't think of a way to decrease the risk of what would leave the chimney.

pen
 
pen said:
BeGreen said:
I agree, almost 100%, but greythorn is in a totally extreme situation, especially this year. Creosote formation at -50F has got to be a whole different animal than at 25F. With temps that cold, all system are stressed, including the chimney. Fortunately this is not a mass market problem. But it does leave me thinking about how hard it is to cope with a winter like they are having this year in AK.
Click to expand...

Good point.

If it were me dealing with this situation, I'd buy the excel chimney that meets the Canadian specs, and install it inside the dwelling, up and out. If it has to be on the outside, then I'd put it in an insulated chase (put R-30 in the thing if you want) with all parts including insulation meeting the clearance to combustibles spec.

But again, that would just reduce the chance of a build-up. Obviously, good burning practices would help as well. As I mentioned before, what concerns me is the idea of no maintenance. I can see being able to reduce maintenance and worry, but it simply can't go away. The top of that chimney is always going to be the weakest link in that stuff has to exit, if that stuff happens to be burning creosote, I hope you have a steel roof and I hope that none of it fall down on a wood porch, a pile of leaves next to the house 30 feet away, etc, etc.

I had a friend who ended up having a chimney fire in an Outside Wood Boiler. His garage was 50 feet away and burnt down.

If you try and use a cap with smaller holes in it to reduce the size of burning particulate matter that could exit, then that would very possibly increase maintenance. If you use a cap with no or larger holes then the risk I mentioned exists.

Bottom line, I don't think there is a way to make these things completely fool proof. All you can every do is build it so that the odds are reduced. With that said, done right, I'd still prefer the best UL tested product over a homemade unit if it were my home in this situation.

I think building a chimney out of thicker steel could hurt the process because thicker steel, even if insulated, is going to take a longer time to heat up than thinner steel will and would thereby increase the risk of creosote formation. If the thinner steel and insulating layer can protect your home from a chimney fire by directly entering the structure, your fault is still in the exit and for the life of me, I can't think of a way to decrease the risk of what would leave the chimney.

pen
Click to expand...
Seems like a very valid point.
 
pen said:
BeGreen said:
I agree, almost 100%, but greythorn is in a totally extreme situation, especially this year. Creosote formation at -50F has got to be a whole different animal than at 25F. With temps that cold, all system are stressed, including the chimney. Fortunately this is not a mass market problem. But it does leave me thinking about how hard it is to cope with a winter like they are having this year in AK.
Click to expand...

I think building a chimney out of thicker steel could hurt the process because thicker steel, even if insulated, is going to take a longer time to heat up than thinner steel will and would thereby increase the risk of creosote formation. If the thinner steel and insulating layer can protect your home from a chimney fire by directly entering the structure, your fault is still in the exit and for the life of me, I can't think of a way to decrease the risk of what would leave the chimney.

pen
Click to expand...

if your burning 24/7 i think the ticker metal would hold heat longer also.

I am not in the extreem area, that is fairbanks alaska with -60f, im far south in an area outside the city of palmer alaska in the knik river valley, here we are only getting down to -25f or so and its just an unusual year its held longer in this cold then normally.
 
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