Liner inside my Class A

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burnagain

New Member
Jun 22, 2012
50
LaGrange, GA
I posted a while back about how my wife and I are preparing to purchase an insert in the future. We will be installing this where our prefab Desa 36 currently is.

After learning from Begreen that the installation of new Desa's required Class A, I checked and sure enough it's in there already, but it's 8 inches in diameter.

So my plan for this was to save some money and put a 6" liner inside my Class A. Well, I just requested a quote for a VC Montpelier (wife likes the appearance) from Obadiah's and told them in them quote request that it was my plan. They informed me that this was not the correct method for installation.

Do any of you have any feedback for me regarding this? I thought this would be perfectly okay, but want to make sure I am set up correctly. There is no rush for getting it in this summer, I'd love to but I'm willing to put it off until next summer if I MUST, but I'm just trying to iron out all the details so I can get a budget set before I dive into buying things.


*As a side note, yes I have already started my wood stash, I have about 3 cords at the house now and I am in the middle of a big scrounge now, just waiting until I finish to put up some pictures.
 
Page 2 of the manual you linked to says:
WARNING: Do not install a fireplace insert in this box unless the manufacturer's instructions with the insert specifically state this fireplace has been tested for use with this insert.
Click to expand...

Did you check with VC to see if their Montpelier is cleared to fit in this unit?

pen
 
Have you asked Obidiah's these questions?
 
Yeah and they only mentioned a problem with the liner,nothing about the unots not being compatible.

It looks like ive got some more looking to do. May end up going the epa fp route with a forced air kit too. Too much to research its looking more and more like it will be next summer.
 
I would ask them for specifics. So far Ihaven't heard any reason why this might be unsafe or not work, but I could be missing something. Traveling right now, so accessing the Monpelier docs is not convenient.
 
A 6" insulated liner inside an 8" liner was exactly what was just prescribed for my new installation. Sounds like we should have my contractor talk to yours. One of them must be wrong, but I can't tell you which.
 
That's very true, and unfortunate. Honestly after looking more and more I'm really considering going with a ZC fireplace with a vent routing to the forced air unit. This would put me off definitely until next summer, but would allow me to make a more comfortable installation. In the meantime I will keep knocking out wood collection and enjoy a few weekend fires in my prefab I guess.
 
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Take your time, research, research & research some more, come to a comfortable decision, and do it right the first time. It really sucks to be unhappy with a purchase, especially a large one, and then possibly redo costing more money. Better to have it later and happy with the outcome, then rush it in, and be miserable sooner.
 
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I cringe every time somebody comes through here talking about a stove or insert in a pre-fab fireplace. The materials they are made of and more importantly the clearances behind and beside them are just not made for the heat of a stove or insert. Heck I have always been concerned about the framing I can't see around my masonry fireplace.

Long and short, and it is just me, I would never put a insert or wood stove in a pre-fab fireplace. They are made to sell as the cheapest alternative for home builders. When I had my first house built in 1977 I wouldn't let the builder put one in it. He cried "What if you don't close on it. I won't ever be able to sell it without a fireplace.". I told him to suck it up and I had the Class A (of the time) and the stove installed the day after closing. And even that one charred the ceiling joists around the pipe in the ceiling. Knees got a little weak when I saw that taking stuff out of the attic when we moved eight years later.
 
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BrotherBart said:
I cringe every time somebody comes through here talking about a stove or insert in a pre-fab fireplace. The materials they are made of and more importantly the clearances behind and beside them are just not made for the heat of a stove or insert. Heck I have always been concerned about the framing I can't see around my masonry fireplace.

Long and short, and it is just me, I would never put a insert or wood stove in a pre-fab fireplace. They are made to sell as the cheapest alternative for home builders. When I had my first house built in 1977 I wouldn't let the builder put one in it. He cried "What if you don't close on it. I won't ever be able to sell it without a fireplace.". I told him to suck it up and I had the Class A (of the time) and the stove installed the day after closing. And even that one charred the ceiling joists around the pipe in the ceiling. Knees got a little weak when I saw that taking stuff out of the attic when we moved eight years later.
Click to expand...
Agreed, except if it is a heatilator or heatform. Mine was no cheap builder's grad thin junk. Double walls of damn near 1/4" thick steel.
 
I'd also make an exception (obviously, since I did it myself with the Fireview) for the case of a hearth stove in front of a prefab that has (properly installed) class A chimney already, and the stove itself meets clearances regardless of the fireplace. (Generally meaning it has a rear heat shield.) Then the prefab mostly just serves as an additional heat shield and support box for the chimney. I can stick my hand into the prefab firebox with the stove cranked and the firebrick is only warm.
 
I hear all of you and appreciate your thoughts and opinions. I think the ZC fireplace is the way we'll go, next year. I'm more comfortable with it and feel like I can probably do more heating since I can route to my forced air unit with some. Now if only someone wants to drop that pot of gold on the porch sometime this summer I won't have to wait til next year :)

Thanks again everyone
 
I replied directly to burnagain (OP) but if we are discussing a ZC fireplace connecting with an older HT2100 rated chimney via liner this is the information I was able to gather...

Unfortunately the building codes/ fire codes do not address the installation of a liner inside a prefab chimney (HT-2100 rated) for ZC installation. We've asked various standards bodies for their input and they all say this is a grey area. Since that is the case, you will likely find there are no MFG that can recommend using a liner to connect to any ZC fireplaces. Most inspector would not recognize of approve of such installation.
 
But this type of liner installation is approved for lower-temp air-cooled chimneys in the same circumstance? That doesn't make sense.
 
begreen said:
But this type of liner installation is approved for lower-temp air-cooled chimneys in the same circumstance? That doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...

Air cooled is approved? Is there a specific code that can be referenced?

On the flip coin, if a house holder choose to install a liner for a ZC installation into an approved HT2100 chimney. There are no codes or legislations were aware of that specifically prohibits this. The liner would have to meet mfg & installation code but an argument could be made nothing prohibits this. As always, it will depend on how your inspector choose to interpret it.
 
By Osburn's own docs, this installation already meets requirements:

d) Installation must include a full height listed chimney liner meeting type HT requirements (2100
degree F.) per UL 1777 (U.S.) or ULC S635 (Canada). The liner must be securely attached to the
insert flue collar and to the chimney top.

Most insert have the boilerplate requirement for the liner:
d) Installation must include a full height listed chimney liner meeting type HT requirements (2100
degree F.) per UL 1777 (U.S.) or ULC S635 (Canada). The liner must be securely attached to the
insert flue collar and to the chimney top.

This only spec the liner requirements, not the ZC flue. If the liner is rated for 2100F, then it is implied that the installation in a ZC chimney is ok.

Quadrafire docs are more specific:
The factory-built chimney must be listed per UL 127 and
meet the type HT requirements of UL 103. Factory-built
fireplace chimneys tested to UL 127-1998, may be at the
fireplace manufacturer’s option, tested to the same criteria
as UL 103 HT requirements. If the chimney is not listed as
meeting HT requirements, or if the factory-built fireplace was
tested prior to 1998, a full height listed chimney liner must
be installed from the appliance flue collar to the chimney
top. The liner must meet type HT requirements (2100ºF)
per UL 1777.

This specification is discussed in detail quite awhile ago:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/ul-103-vs-ul-127.2820/
 
begreen said:
By Osburn's own docs, this installation already meets requirements:

d) Installation must include a full height listed chimney liner meeting type HT requirements (2100
degree F.) per UL 1777 (U.S.) or ULC S635 (Canada). The liner must be securely attached to the
insert flue collar and to the chimney top.

Most insert have the boilerplate requirement for the liner:
d) Installation must include a full height listed chimney liner meeting type HT requirements (2100
degree F.) per UL 1777 (U.S.) or ULC S635 (Canada). The liner must be securely attached to the
insert flue collar and to the chimney top.

This only spec the liner requirements, not the ZC flue. If the liner is rated for 2100F, then it is implied that the installation in a ZC chimney is ok.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure which model you have this info for, but if you download the 'Stratford' ZC installation Manual you will see the info is only for a Masonry installation. There are no prefab chimney liner statement.

I did some more follow up and this is what we're able to find:

It looks like no one will commit themselves into a real answer concerning the Relining of a prefab chimney. Last year we got an answer from Omni saying that we could reline a prefab chimney if we installed a vented flashing on top of the chimney.

We also contacted a Selkirk Distributor and they tell people the same, there are no specific guideline for ZC liner installation into a prefab.
Installers typically have to improvise by cutting a flat roof vented flashing to fit the chimney.

See: http://www.selkirkcorp.com/metalbest/product.aspx?id=6544

Text from the installation of the Versa-Liner

7 Before installing a VERSA-LINER™ system into a factory-built chimney, check with your local codes. The chimney must be thoroughly
cleaned and checked for structural defects. Relining an existing certified factory-built chimney will not change its listing. All parts of the
chimney system, such as supports, radiation shields, and fire stops specified by the chimney manufacturer must be installed correctly and,
in addition, there must be proper clearances between the chimney and surrounding combustible materials, as specified by the chimneys
installation instructions.

Also take a look at.

http://www.savemoneywithus.com/RelinerAdaptorsEtc.html

In other words, we have found no standards that specifically address this issue. The solutions above should take care of any concerns if installed as per the Chimney MFG & Liner MFG recommendations.
 
That is very interesting. The last link that you pusted was what I was thinking when considering putting a 6" liner inside my chimney, it makes sense that this would be okay. I don't see why putting a certified liner inside a certified chimney, both approved for the high temperature use would ever be of concern, but better to verify before than to redo later.
 
burnagain said:
That is very interesting. The last link that you pusted was what I was thinking when considering putting a 6" liner inside my chimney, it makes sense that this would be okay. I don't see why putting a certified liner inside a certified chimney, both approved for the high temperature use would ever be of concern, but better to verify before than to redo later.
Click to expand...

You are right... if you can install it into an old masonry chimney where many of them may or may not have been installed properly why not into a certified prefab chimney? it only makes sense.

What happens often time is common sense is not always enough. Many inspectors will not stick their neck out if its not written black on white.
 
I think that was from the Osburn 1800i manual, but not positive.
 
I had/ have a 8" air cooled triple walled chimney. What I did was pulled the 8" out that left the 10" and the 12" outer wall. I only left the bottom 4' section and removed everything above it. So it sticks out of the roof about a foot and a half then 9' of class A. The new 6" class A went inside the 10" just fine with about 1 1/2 " all around. I filled the void with Vermiulite. So I ended up with a extra insulated classs A then a 2" air space to the outside of the old triple walled chimney then the 3" to any wood. It might be over kill but has worked and was alot cheaper and I did not need a roof kit and support box. Also keeps the new class A warmer. When I had it inspected got no complants. Not sure if it would pass code in your area but here no porblem. Good luck and stay safe and warm.
Don
 
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