Which wood stove for large open log home @ 7600 elev?

Did some on-site work for long time customers in a large (10-12,000 sf) home (Lodge?). They have a huge Rumsford looking fire box that the owner designed. It's somewhat a masonry mass heater, I can't explain how it works. They have a huge open area, about 5,000 sf, with a vaulted ceiling three stories tall. The ceiling is heavily pitched at the 3rd floor level. He claims to heat the area with the fireplace, but that's not the tricky part. They both hate ceiling fans, and the top floor has their offices and a music room. That's where I touched up the damage. It was very comfortable, not more than a few degrees warmer than the main floor. I asked how? He said the hot air rising was collected by a duct running the length of the room, concealed in a false beam added to the real one. What they did was create a duct wrap it in pine slab wood, and have the vents on the upper side along the length not visible from below. It looks like two huge logs stacked together. The blower is in a service closet upstairs and pulls air from above and distributes it through six inch ducts at the bottom of the main floor walls. I think he said there were a dozen or so outlets. Nothing as strong as forced air, and you could only feel a gentle movement of air. He said that in the Summer it worked in reverse, draws cool air from down below and deposits along the ridge. Says he took the idea from a commercial air handling system used in a restaurant they like a lot. He just made it look rustic. Didn't ask cost, didn't pry into the how and why, just know he is a very creative thinking engineer that has been extremely successful and doesn't waste a dime.

As far as other soapstone stoves go, the Woodstock Fireview has a great rep and I know that one forum member, NYSoapstone heats over 2000 sq ft with his and I heat over 1800 with mine from my finished basement.

But if you and the wife really like the looks of the Defiant, go for it. I think most of the bad reviews were from bad installs or operator error.

Mr_Super-Hunky said:

Thanks for the info Goose. We do have three fans already installed at the ridge and the roof pitch is very steep (10/12) so I will actually be blowing the air UP and then the angled ceilings will divert the circulating air back down.

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Well that is the way you are SUPPOSED to run ceiling fans in the winter - pulling the hot air up, and bouncing it off the ceiling so that it flows back down along the walls helps keep the drafts down. In the summer most people want to blow straight down to get the extra cooling the breeze provides... Since we have both extremes, and our fan hangs 6' down from a 12/12 pitch ceiling we needed something that we could reverse from the ground since there is no practical way to reach the motor and flip the direction switch on most fans.

Several people have had concers that a single stove of any brand may not be enough.Whether it is or not, I have not heard anyone worry that it may be too much heat!. For that reason, I too am a bit worried that we may be underpowered.

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"Underpowered" is a question of definition - how much of the heat load do you want the stove to carry vs. your backup / regular heating system? What is your "comfort temperature"? Will you be happy if the stove gets you to that 90% of the time, but on the ten coldest days of the year, you need to bundle up inside, or use the backup heat to "fill in" the last 10 degrees? How cold does it actually get? Never having lived there, my mental image of "Flagstaff AZ" is more like a hot desert than New England, but that doesn't count for much - more important is what is your usual Winter low temp, how long does it stay that cold, and how many "degree days" of heating do you need? All of these sorts of questions are going to play into the power equation, and alot of them we can't really tell the answers to from where we sit.

The way I see it, a second stove may be worthless upstairs as all my heat is going there anyway.

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You said your lower level floor plan is fairly open, would it be feasible to locate a stove near opposite ends or corners of the house? I would probably tend to say pick two stove locations like you were going with a two stove solution, and put a big stove of your choice in the better of the two. Run for a season or two, and decide if you need more heat, and if so, how much, then add a second stove of appropriate size in the second place if needed.

One thing to remember that full log homes have an incredible "thermal mass" in terms of insulation. Once they warm up, they can remain warm relatively easily...(So I am told).

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I've heard they have good thermal mass properties, but I've also heard mixed stories about how good they are for "R-value" of insulation, and / or blocking air infiltration. I think mostly this depends on the exact construction technology used, and how well it was applied... I would say air infiltration is going to be your biggest concern.

Should I get the defiant or the new Lopi Leyden, would it be bad for the stove to be running all the time at say medium setting?, or should I possibly hold out for the upcoming monster equinox by Hearthstone?. Maybe that tank at 80,000 btu.s with a 4.0+ cf box would do the job.

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Having any stove running 24/7 at a medium heat, or even a high heat that isn't over firing is fine, thats what a stove is designed to do. A soapstone stove especially works best when used for 24/7 burning. However, I think you are going to have some trouble doing this. 1. Your high ceiling is going to mean you'll have stronger than average draft, which is going to give you a tendency to over-fire, and the natural tendency of pine to give short HOT fires is also going to give you a tendency to over fire.

A couple of other folks have mentioned the idea of your looking into "Masonry Heaters" - the Tulakivi is one brand, there are others, mostly quasi-custom built for each home. In many ways they would be IDEAL for you, and I would reccomend looking seriously at them.

I may be putting a very expensive grand piano in the house so I am also concerned with humidity levels. I've read an outside combustion air kit will possibly prevent the home from getting to dry and stuffy. Any thoughts ?

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An Outside Air Kit (OAK) is mostly needed to supply outside air in the case of homes that are very tightly sealed and / or have lots of other exhaust air appliances (such as a big exhaust fan on the stove) that compete for combustion air. Without the OAK, you "burn" room air, which is replaced by outside air infiltrating into the house - some folks see this as a good thing for bringing in "fresh air" The problem is that outside air is usually drier so you'd possibly have to keep re-humidifying it. An OAK would mean you "burn" outside air, which would reduce that problem. Other than that issue, there probably isn't that big a difference between wood heat and any other, besides the fact that you might have more fluctuations - I'd be more worried about temperature changes than humidity.

Gooserider

I was running out of space in the earlier, so I thought I'd start a new post adding to my earlier comment backing the suggestion of a masonry heater for your application.

A masonry heater, unlike a stove, is generally a custom built permanent part of your structure. Most times it is suggested they be designed in, and built as part of new construction, but they can be retrofitted in some cases.

In essence an MH is a BIG masonry structure that contains a very convoluted smoke passage that usually goes up and down a few times, and a relatively small, tightly sealed firebox, with a generous but carefully controlled airflow. They must be fairly centrally located in a structure, and do best with very open floor plans. It is not uncommon for them to incorporate a large cook oven suitable for breads, roasting, pizzas and the sort - a traditional "brick oven" IOW. They can also incorporate heat exchangers for radiant floor heating (in a bathroom for instance) and / or domestic hot water pre-heating.

The reason I think an MH might work very well for you is that you have a large open floorplan, with a big footprint. An MH can be built in almost any size, so a good designer could certainly put one in that was appropriate for your home and location.

You are going to have a good draft setup, which an MH should have, so that isn't a problem, and will give you the ability to get a more convoluted smoke passage, improving your efficiency.

The really big advantage IMHO is that a woodstove is intended to operate with a fairly slow, low temperature fire for a long duration burn, which your pine fuel is going to make difficult at best. But an MH has an entirely different operating principle - It is intended that you build 1-3 short, hot, high intensity fires a day, exactly the sort of fires that pine "wants" to make. Unlike a conventional woodstove, it is almost impossible to over-fire an MH. The heat from these very hot fires gets stored in the masonry mass which then radiates it out over the next 12-24 hours. An MH is the extreme example of a soapstone stove in terms of thermal mass heat storage, but while your soapstone stove may weigh a few hundred pounds, your MH will weigh tons, and store that much more heat. However it will also avoid the temperature swings that I would worry about if you are also putting in a fancy piano.

The downside of an MH is that it's a custom built thing that has certain architectural and engineering demands, such as a suitable footing, central location, etc. and it's relatively expensive... Upside is that they are impressive looking, and can be made to fit into any decor depending on how the exterior is finished. Some folks claim they are environmentally cleaner and more efficient than conventional woodstoves, others argue that point.

Because they have a very long "lag time" between when you build the fire and when you get the heat, you would need to pay fairly close attention to the weather forecasts to determine how much you need to feed it today in order that you will have the right amount of heat tomorrow. The idea is that you deal with temperature adjustment by building more or less fires, and in some cases smaller fires each day

(I doubt it will ever happen, but if I were ever in a position to build a new home with only moderate budgetary constraints, I would probably put an MH very high on my desired feature list...)

I would strongly suggest that you look into them as well as wood stoves, I think they might be a better fit for your application

Gooserider

Mr_Super-Hunky said:

Goose:

Thanks for the in-depth reply and explanation of masonry heaters.

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No problem, glad to help...

Our log home is only a month or so from being finished and we did not incorporate a masonry heater into our plans as I was not aware of them.

We do have a giant Magestic 42'' penninsula wood burning fireplace built into the center of the great room as a giant center piece; however, technically, I think firing that sucker up would actually cool the house down due to the combustion air requirements.

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Dumb thought, but is that a masonry unit or a prefab? If it's masonry you presumably already have the footings you'd need, would it be possible to re-engineer it into a Masonry Heater? It might not be cheap, but would seem like a way to go that would get the heat AND a nice looking peninsula setup, possibly better than a fireplace that you don't want to use...

My thinking has possibly changed, and that is I may now be looking to offset the quick-hot fire characteristics of burning only pine with a cooler, slower burning stove..i.e soapstone.

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That might work, but the challenge will be burning the pine without over-firing. It should be possible, but you will need to be real careful to watch your fires and stack temps closely until you get the hang of using the stove. You will also need to watch things like gasket seals on the doors and such closer than most because of your high draft potential, in addition to the pine.

Or........could I just use say a large cast iron stove and keep the setting at a lower temperature to slow down and extend the burn time of pine?

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That is also a possibility, but the soapstone will probably do it better.

This may sound a bit nuts, but how about soaking a few of the pine logs in water to slow down there burn rate?. I've heard of people doing this with certain types of wood when barbequeing fish on the grill.

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ABSOLUTELY NOT BG said if well in the previous post... As further explanation, you have a certain amount of BTU's / lb of wood, the exact number depends on wood species, etc. but burning a pound of a given wood can potentially release that many BTU's. Some of those BTU's go into breaking down the wood into it's component gases, and some go up the flue as hot smoke, which is needed to make the stove work. However even with dry wood, one of the earliest stages of combustion is to EVAPORATE any moisture in the wood. Typical "dry" firewood will have about 15-20% moisture - Green wood can be almost 100%, and any BTU's used to evaporate the water are not available to you as heat. So trying to burn wet pine, whether it is green, or you soaked it will give you a cooler fire that burns just as fast but doesn't put out any heat.

When smoking food on the BBQ, the idea is that you want the wood volatiles to get carried off in the smoke and get deposited on the food where it's called "flavor" soaking the wood keeps it too cool to ignite properly so it makes a lot of cool smoke.... In a wood stove we want to BURN those volatiles - anything we burn is called heat, anything that doesn't gets to condense in the chimney where we call it creosote, which is at best a nusiance and at worst a fire hazard. If the volatiles make it out of the chimney, we call them pollution...

We see lots of "problem burners" here, and one of the most common causes of excess smoke and / or "fire burns but doesn't make heat" complaints is wood that isn't dry enough...

Gooserider (edited to fix quotes)

Mr_Super-Hunky said:

Goose:

Thanks for the in-depth reply and explanation of masonry heaters.

Our log home is only a month or so from being finished and we did not incorporate a masonry heater into our plans as I was not aware of them.

We do have a giant Magestic 42'' penninsula wood burning fireplace built into the center of the great room as a giant center piece; however, technically, I think firing that sucker up would actually cool the house down due to the combustion air requirements.

My thinking has possibly changed, and that is I may now be looking to offset the quick-hot fire characteristics of burning only pine with a cooler, slower burning stove..i.e soapstone.

Or........could I just use say a large cast iron stove and keep the setting at a lower temperature to slow down and extend the burn time of pine?.

This may sound a bit nuts, but how about soaking a few of the pine logs in water to slow down there burn rate?. I've heard of people doing this with certain types of wood when barbequeing fish on the grill.

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Hi, super; I don't think thats a good idea , that would make to much creosote; a fire hazard . For a big place like yours I would agree with titan and look in to a big fireplace stove like the napoleon , or the quad. With one of those stoves they can be duct to were you need the heat .

Mr_Super-Hunky said:

We do have a giant Magestic 42'' penninsula wood burning fireplace built into the center of the great room as a giant center piece; however, technically, I think firing that sucker up would actually cool the house down due to the combustion air requirements.

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Is this where you want your stove? Have you looked into a hearth stove or insert stove for your fireplace? If your fireplace is in a good central location of your home, that would be the best place for your stove.

Gooserider said:

Mr_Super-Hunky said:

Thanks for the info Goose. We do have three fans already installed at the ridge and the roof pitch is very steep (10/12) so I will actually be blowing the air UP and then the angled ceilings will divert the circulating air back down.

Click to expand...

Well that is the way you are SUPPOSED to run ceiling fans in the winter - pulling the hot air up, and bouncing it off the ceiling so that it flows back down along the walls helps keep the drafts down. In the summer most people want to blow straight down to get the extra cooling the breeze provides... Since we have both extremes, and our fan hangs 6' down from a 12/12 pitch ceiling we needed something that we could reverse from the ground since there is no practical way to reach the motor and flip the direction switch on most fans.

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Are you sure about that? I always thought you push the warm air down with a ceiling fan? Hot air will naturally rise up the walls and then you push it back down towards the center of the house.

Congrats Mr S-H,you're correct.IN winter the fan should be pulling cooler air from the floor to the ceiling,then forcing this mixed air down the nearest walls which aids in eliminating drafts via these exterior walls.

Ended up with a duplicate of an earlier post somehow - fixed...

drop in a 30

HEARTHSTONE EQUINOX WOOD STOVE USERS:: I am in the process of buying either a Hearthstone Equinox, or a Pacific Energy Summit wood stove to fit in my 3000 sq. foot log home. It is an open floor plan. Price is not much of an issue, due to me enjoying wood heat, and lots of it. I have been a wood burner for 20 years, and like the house very warm. I am wondering if it would take too long for the equinox to warm up the house because of the delay in the heat. Plus, would it keep it toasty warm while I am gone. I live in North Idaho where temps. are rather cold in the winter. If I go to work, will it sustain the heat, and will I struggle to keep up with the heat when I get home from work. I'm looking for the biggest, warmest heater out there. Any helpful experiences would be appreciated. Thank you.

You might want to start a new thread...This one is over a year old. My Quad 5700 does a great job.