Hello and a question from a new member (sorry-long)

newtowood · Dec 17, 2007

Hi everyone,

I found this site while searching the web for info. on wood stoves and installations. I thought I had done quite a bit of research, but it turns out that I apparently didn't do enough. So, my first question for the group is how can I be sure I get a good price and a correct stove installation?

All the sites I looked at before buying made it seem like a fairly simple thing. With oil over $3. gallon, I decided to go for it. After I bought the stove, the BF and I started actually looking for the right info. on installing the stove. Everyone we knew and even the websites made it seem like 2 educated people, one a carpenter for a living, should be able to do it. As I read, I got scared. It spread to BF. We decided to get it professionally installed if we could possibly afford it.

First estimate came today. $3,000.00!! To install a $450.00 stove. Does this seem way off base for a through the wall and up the outside installation? It is a fairly tall house. Maybe it is, I really don't know. If so, I won't waste anyone else's time doing an estimate.

Can we realistically do this ourselves, if this is a reasonable price? The man who did the first estimate indicated that inspectors don't like DIY installations and my insur. co. may have an issue with it. Is this also your experience?

I am really sick about the whole thing. I was so looking forward to actually being warm, but now I think I may have no choice but to return the stove, pay for the oil and plan to wear 4 layers of clothes.

Anyone have any ideas? Thoughts? Advice?

begreen · Dec 17, 2007

Hi there and welcome.

OK, first suggestion is to sit down, take a deep breath and maybe have a nice cuppa tea.

We'll need a lot more information before we can advise, but your first thoughts may be correct. Installing a stove is not rocket science. There are several things to consider, primarily about safety. But it is all doable and there are several hearth members that have done it themselves.

So tell us about the stove, what you are getting estimates for, and maybe post a picture of where you'd like to install it. Fire away with lots of questions and we'll get them answered.

nshif · Dec 17, 2007

If your BF is a carpenter ( at least a decient one ) you 2 should be able to do this with advice from this forum. I did my own and its not that big of a deal if you know what to do. Its still gonna cost some for a chimney but not 3K. My 1st thought is to keep the stack in the house straight up as it will save some money on stove pipe ( single or double wall vs Class A outside ) and it will draft better.
Did the 3K include a hearth and wall protection? or just the pipe and install of the pipe? What kind of stove? that will determine your hearth and wall protection needs and costs. Is the house 1 story or 2?
And as BG said some pics would help

newtowood · Dec 17, 2007

Thanks for the fast response and good advice about the tea. I admit to being a bit :gulp: when I first posted.

The stove wasn't an expensive one. It is the Century Hearth/Vermont Castings 24007 Here's a link to the clearance sheet http://www.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/FW240007-8.pdf

I did a bit more digging and got some online prices for the parts and my rough estimate shows they would cost about $1,600.00 I used the estimated 20 feet of outside chimney pipe the estimator used, plus a through the wall installation kit which included the thimble, tee, supports, flashing, rain cap, etc.

Apparently, the estimator indicated that it was, as we thought, a simple installation. However, he said that even if we were able to get a permit (which was unlikely in itself), without being a licensed contractor, we'd never get a certificate. As a result, my insurance company would be unlikely to pay in the event of a fire and I'd have a tough time selling my house with the stove (which I will likely do in the next 2-4 years). It wasn't clear what would happen if BF's friend, who is a licensed contractor, though only a GC, got the permit.

I am sort of leaning toward returning this stove and getting the much nicer one (with the installation) from the stove/fireplace store up the road for $3,000.00 It irks me more than a little that I could, at least in theory, save myself $1,000,00 by installing ourselves, but I am more than a bit reluctant to risk the lack of certificate.

Have any of you ever run into or become aware of a town having that position? Anything is possible, but I have no way of knowing if it's true.

So far, it does seem like the estimate may be a bit high, but I'd be interested to hear what you all think.

If you still think it's worthwhile, I can get pics tonight of the location, but it's pretty much straight through an outside wall and then up. House has metal siding, if it matters.

Edited to add that the $3K did not include a hearth or wall protection.

begreen · Dec 17, 2007

First, things first. If you've read up a bit here you will see that if at all possible, it's best to avoid putting in an exterior chimney. An interior flue will burn much cleaner and will draft better. Often this is also less expensive because there is not as much class A pipe involved. If putting in an interior chimney is at all a possibility, do consider it strongly.

The second consideration is how big a stove is required and how you intend to run it. If 24/7 all winter long, you will want a quality stove that will last many years. Some bargain stoves don't do well with serious burning. OK, many questions for you: Will this stove be burning 24/7 or evenings and weekends? How large is the house? What is the floor plan like - very open or many rooms with doors in between? How large is the room the stove will be in? How well is the house insulated?

It's good to take one's time when buying a stove and often the best bargain is not the best stove for the job. Some stoves are more efficient or easier to use. And often a first time stove buyer gets a stove that is too small for the job. What is the alternate stove you are considering?

Jfigliuolo · Dec 17, 2007

Not knowing your local codes... I think he is BS'ing you about permits and inspections. I do not believe that you will have ANY trouble pulling a permit OR passing inspection. Just make sure you do it correctly. I as well as many other members did DIY with ZERO permit problems. Also, MOST insurance companies only require a permit and an inspection (passing). Check with your town hall about pulling a permit and your se what your insurance co requires. It should only take a couple 5 minute phone calls.

newtowood · Dec 17, 2007

The interior pipe is a bit of a problem, since the stove will be on the first floor of a 2 story and the room upstairs is really very small. If it went straight up, it would end up using quite a bit of the usable area in the office and be next to the wall between 2 rooms. Knowing how much cheaper and better it would be, I would like to do it, but it just doesn't seem practical for this house.

The house is small. The room the stove will be going in is roughly 450 sq. feet, with a kitchen of almost the same size attached. But, the access to the kitchen is just a doorway, so I'm not expecting a dramatic amount of heat to make it in there. It's an add on and is always the "cold room", even now.

The upstairs is only about the size of the stove room, possibly a bit wider. It's been my experience that it is almost always about 10 degrees warmer up there, just from the design of the house and heat rising. Do you think the 1,000 sq. ft. would be enough?

Yes, I believe the plan would for the stove to do the primary heating, so I guess we'd be aiming for as close to 24/7 operation as possible.

I don't remember the brand or model of the stove from the dealer. I have the booklet on it at home and will let you know. I believe it was roughly the same size, possibly a bit bigger, but with a blower built in, instead of something we'd have to add to the current one. I am certain it is a better quality stove. Given that I'm planning to sell in the 4 years, I wasn't too worried about longevity, but I suppose plans can change and a nicer stove would be more attractive to a purchaser.

jeffman3 · Dec 17, 2007

The guys here are great, and will help ALLOT !!!

They helped me through my hearth construction and saved me hundreds of dollars for that portion of my install. I am having mine professionally installed, but I am paying $1200 for the pipe and chimney, and $500 for the install. I'm doing a pretty strait forward install, interior, straight up to the chimney, and through the roof. I will have about 12 ft. after the roof to meet the clearances, and probably a support brace, but the estimate I got was still only $1700 parts and install. We don't have the code, permit, and inspection stuff here, ( I about got laughed at when I called the village office to ask about the codes, permit etc...)so that may influence the price as well. My insurance CO. didn't even raise my rates as long as it installed by a professional.

Mine will be going in the end of the month, so we'll see what the final bill will be when it's all done. It should be very close, we estimated high across the board. Whole project projected about $4000. (stove, hearth, double wall pipe, chimney, labor, miles (dealer is over an hour away)etc....)

newtowood · Dec 17, 2007

I kind of hope that you're right about the permits/inspections. BF checked with K'tor friend and he said there's no reason why they shouldn't issue the permit to a homeowner. He indicated that there is no requirement to be a lic. K'tor to do work on your own home. So, I guess we will keep checking. Pretty lousy sales tactic though, if that is the case.

nshif · Dec 17, 2007

Your installer is BSing you as a homeowner you can do any permited work yourself and have it inspected. What you cant do is hire an unlincesed contrator to do it. I built my entire house myself and had no problems with any permits or inspections for elec or plumbing or woodstove install. I wouldnt trust that installer. Check with your county bldg dept for permit requirments

JimWalshin845 · Dec 17, 2007

If you live in a 'city' you may have a problem. Most 'cities' are more stringent as per fire/health codes and require licensed contractors. If you live in suburbia or in a low density area there shouldn't be a problem as to securing a permit and a C-of-O.

Welcome aboard and good luck with your stove!

nshif · Dec 17, 2007

Jim Walsh said:
If you live in a 'city' you may have a problem. Most 'cities' are more stringent as per fire/health codes and require licensed contractors. If you live in suburbia or in a low density area there shouldn't be a problem as to securing a permit and a C-of-O.

Welcome aboard and good luck with your stove!

I have Never heard of any jurisdiction where a homeowner can not act as their own contractor. Rental properties are different but primary residence does not require a lincensed contractor. you are required to get a permit and have an inspection but a contractors lincense is not required.

T Osborn · Dec 17, 2007

The first thing we did after deciding to burn wood was contact our insurance company. He sent me a booklet from NFPA on proper install distances, clearances, etc. He first said my rates would not be affected IF the install passed his inspection, since no local codes/permits were required. He later did say we were under-insured and,guess what, my rates went up $20/Mo. !

Being a firm believer in DYI, my buddy, who is a licensed/bonded carpentor,and I proceded to do the install.
One crucial mistake I made was to depend on the stove's manual for wall clearance distance for the stove pipe.. I should have stuck with the insurance guys pamphlet, which had the correct distance. While not a deal breaker, it cost me another $170 for DW stove pipe. All in all, it has passed the insurance agents inspection and we've been 24/7 since 11/30.

No matter what route you go buying/installing your stove, you should cultivate a friendship with a good reputable hearth shop. While you will encounter those who don't like "tire kickers" most are willing to help and hopefully sell you something down the road.

newtowood · Dec 17, 2007

Thanks for all the info. and tips. Please keep them coming! Thoughts on the stove, size of the stove, all of it.

Meantime, I guess my next two phone calls will be the town and the insurance company. I'll be really happy if we can do this the way we originally planned. The chimney is going to cost more than I originally imagined, but it's doable.

begreen · Dec 17, 2007

Very good information ntw. Smaller places are a bit more of a challenge to heat 24/7 than a large space due to the small firebox size. A big stove would have you opening windows and taking off clothes. (Some folks consider this a benefit

). But it's not very practical, especially in fall and spring. For what it's worth, I don't think you will need a stove with a blower in this small space. However a small fan in the kitchen doorway, blowing towards the stove may help to warm up that area.

As you have probably gathered, your stove salesperson appears to be blowing smoke. You should be able to get a permit/certification yourselves, unless you are in a high-density area. What part of LI is this?

begreen · Dec 17, 2007

nshif said:
Jim Walsh said:

If you live in a 'city' you may have a problem. Most 'cities' are more stringent as per fire/health codes and require licensed contractors. If you live in suburbia or in a low density area there shouldn't be a problem as to securing a permit and a C-of-O.

Welcome aboard and good luck with your stove!

Click to expand...

I have Never heard of any jurisdiction where a homeowner can not act as their own contractor. Rental properties are different but primary residence does not require a lincensed contractor. you are required to get a permit and have an inspection but a contractors lincense is not required.

There are restrictions in some areas, especially large urban areas like NYC. Even locally one is not allowed to do work on the gas pipes.

newtowood · Dec 17, 2007

I'm in suffolk county. Not really dense (mostly 1/2 acre lots in my neighborhood), but probably more restrictive than a lot of similar burbs.

It seemed that he was implying some sort of corruption among the inspectors. Very disappointing if that is the case. I figure I will ask them when I get the permit if they can give me any idea how many DIY permits are still open. Hopefully, they can provide some sort of rough idea and don't say that 75% have no approvals.

Any opinions on this particular model of stove? It's not too late for me to get a different one.

Wolves-Lower · Dec 17, 2007

I have Never heard of any jurisdiction where a homeowner can not act as their own contractor

I have, and IMHO your going to hear more and more of it to come.

With the two story house it is going to be somewhat difficult. The best thing you can do is keep arming yourself with information. I think you could DIY, but keep in mind the time factor as well.

begreen · Dec 17, 2007

newtowood said:
I'm in suffolk county. Not really dense (mostly 1/2 acre lots in my neighborhood), but probably more restrictive than a lot of similar burbs.

Any opinions on this particular model of stove? It's not too late for me to get a different one.

Best thing for the permit is to check with the town and see what they say.

As to the stove, there aren't too many in this price range. The Englander 13 NC or the Pacific Energy Vista would be others to consider.

SlyFerret · Dec 17, 2007

I received a call from the county building department this morning. My permit is ready to be picked up for my DIY install. I was surprised to hear from them this quickly, since they had told me that it would be Thursday or Friday.

After doing a lot of reading on here and a lot of manual studying, I decided that I was fully capable of installing my stove. I had planned on having a pro do the installation, but once I really started getting into it, it turned out that it wasn't going to be too hard. I'm going straight up from the stove, though the ceiling through a few feet of attic and out the roof. It should be a pretty straightforward install, and I think it will draft great.

Read the stove manual a few times over, and get yourself a PDF file of installation manual for the chimney you plan to use. Read that a few times over. Once you do this, I think you'll start feeling that this project is much more doable than you might have thought.

-SF

JimWalshin845 · Dec 17, 2007

nshif said:
Jim Walsh said:

If you live in a 'city' you may have a problem. Most 'cities' are more stringent as per fire/health codes and require licensed contractors. If you live in suburbia or in a low density area there shouldn't be a problem as to securing a permit and a C-of-O.

Welcome aboard and good luck with your stove!

Click to expand...

I have Never heard of any jurisdiction where a homeowner can not act as their own contractor. Rental properties are different but primary residence does not require a lincensed contractor. you are required to get a permit and have an inspection but a contractors lincense is not required.

I'm sorry to clue you in... but as BeGreen mentioned there are places that you cannot 'always' act as your own contractor. Most of them deal with health and safety. A 'city' that I use to live near and work in had restrictions as per health and safety. Most codes that dealt with HVAC, electrical, plumbing and even replacement of front steps had to be done by a licenced contractor and the licenses were 'city' licenses (talking about creative financing).

I had a friend of mine that left an old crapper that he replaced to be picked up by the sanitation department. Building inspector saw it and ticketed him... to say the least he was PO'd over his crapper. :roll:

The reason why I brought this up was because NewToWood lives in LI and some areas are densely populated.

Safe burns.

noodlestsc · Dec 17, 2007

nshif said:
I have Never heard of any jurisdiction where a homeowner can not act as their own contractor. Rental properties are different but primary residence does not require a lincensed contractor. you are required to get a permit and have an inspection but a contractors lincense is not required.

I have not read this entire post but I have to comment on this statement before it gets anyone in trouble. I'm new to this forum but I must say that you have to watch what advice you are giving people. Your village, town or even state might not require it, but there are many areas where a license IS required. I was a residential architect for many years so I know the codes in my state (NY) pretty well. Yes it is true you should be able to work as your own GC but the subcontractor doing the work usually requires a license.

Before the original poster takes the advice about not needing a licensed contractor I advice that you call your building department and have a chat with them. By far they will be able to give you better advice on everything permit/code/contractor requirements better then anyone here can. It's easy as pie and it will clear everything up.

But I do agree that your guy is BSing you and you should be able to work as your own GC and get all the permits and inspections yourself.

EDIT: NewToWood - Suffolk County DOES require a licensed contractor. Where in Suffolk? I've been out of the residential field for a few years now but might be able to help out with any questions.

nshif · Dec 17, 2007

noodlestsc said:
nshif said:

I have Never heard of any jurisdiction where a homeowner can not act as their own contractor. Rental properties are different but primary residence does not require a lincensed contractor. you are required to get a permit and have an inspection but a contractors lincense is not required.

Click to expand...

I have not read this entire post but I have to comment on this statement before it gets anyone in trouble. I'm new to this forum but I must say that you have to watch what advice you are giving people. Your village, town or even state might not require it, but there are many areas where a license IS required. I was a residential architect for many years so I know the codes in my state (NY) pretty well. Yes it is true you should be able to work as your own GC but the subcontractor doing the work usually requires a license.

Before the original poster takes the advice about not needing a licensed contractor I advice that you call your building department and have a chat with them. By far they will be able to give you better advice on everything permit/code/contractor requirements better then anyone here can. It's easy as pie and it will clear everything up.

But I do agree that your guy is BSing you and you should be able to work as your own GC and get all the permits and inspections yourself.

EDIT: NewToWood - Suffolk County DOES require a licensed contractor. Where in Suffolk? I've been out of the residential field for a few years now but might be able to help out with any questions.

I beleive that is what I said. I guess Ca is not as radical as I thought

Your installer is BSing you as a homeowner you can do any permited work yourself and have it inspected. What you cant do is hire an unlincesed contrator to do it. I built my entire house myself and had no problems with any permits or inspections for elec or plumbing or woodstove install. I wouldnt trust that installer. Check with your county bldg dept for permit requirments
Signature

newtowood · Dec 17, 2007

noodlestsc- Thanks, I'm in the Town of Islip. No village. I actually called the town and was told I can come pick up the application for the permit. I guess I'll inquire more when I do that tomorrow. It's not a huge porblem if it can be any licensed contractor. The lic. contractor friend will be helping with the install anyway.

I'll be in trouble though if I need one that's got any special licenses for chimneys or something similar.

newtowood · Dec 19, 2007

Just an update. I went to the Town to get the application for the permit. They gave me the applic. plus a checklist of stuff to submit with it. One of which was proof of UL737 compliance. Well, mine is UL approved, but under 1482 (solid fuel room heater rather than a solid fuel fireplace) I managed to find copies of both and they are identical. I'm going to attach both to the application, but does anyone know if this will be a problem? I'm hoping the literature from the town, including the residential code are just outdated and/or only had the one section instead of both in their files.

Which leads me to the second part of the update. The woman I spoke with was completely clueless as to whether a contractor install was required. She said if I wanted to be my own contractor, I should write a letter explaining that and attach it with a note in the contractor contact info. section. I'm a little concerned about a delay in the permit issuance if the Suffolk County info. that noodlestsc had is correct. So, I guess contractor friend will be signing off on the applic., assuming he's willing to. can't imagine why not, since he'll be involved in the install anyway.

Oh and one even more interesting piece of info. She said she was clueless and had trouble finding tha papers becasue they don't get too many requests for these permits. Her opinion was that it was due to stoves and fireplaces being put in when the house is built, but I kind of doubt it. There are a lot of older houses on LI. Makes me wonder how many illegal stoves are out there. But, it also meant she couldn't answer the "what percentage of DIY installed ones get approved?" question.

I forgot to ask how long for the permit, but I'm sure you'll find out when I come back with 10,000 more questions.

One question now: We're looking at the Dura-vent chimney and stovepipe with the through the wall installation kit, stovepipe kit and elbow from Northern Tool. Anyone have any comments? Experiences? I am submitting their product manual with the permit application, per town request, so I hope they're good or I'll be making a change I guess.

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