Online Or Local ?

fossil said:

Resiburner said:

I feel it would be unfair and borderline sleazy to purchase a brand new, top of the line machine from someone else and then expect him to service it if something goes wrong.

Thanks Bobbin, I think you hit it right on the head

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I'll let my wife know she's unfair and borderline sleazy. A very nice sewing machine that she bought from a shop she liked a few years back when we lived in Virginia stopped working a few months ago here in our new home in Oregon. She did not take that machine back to the shop from which she purchased it, but found a shop here in Bend with really nice folks who were more than happy to fix it for her, even though she hadn't bought it from them. Runs like a top again, now...and they know they've got a new customer (one with 4 sewing machines :ahhh: ). Things are often not quite as simple as absolute statements make them out to be. It depends. Rick

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no fossil, the spouse isnt unfair or sleazy ( especially sleazy (just in case she reads this)) :cheese: its a different story when you move (especially across country) and need service , versus buying online and expecting a local (whom you could have bought from but didnt due to a few bucks) dealer to sevice the unit as if you bought it from him. OTOH, the local dealer who wasnt bound by contract with you to service your wife's unit earned himself a long term customer by doing the right thing. which brings up my point, now had you lived in the bend area and shopped their store then bought online , would you have been comfortable in going to them for service? probably not , though being nice folks they may still have helped you out and made you a future customer by doing so anyway. the thing that bums me is that some folks would do just that , buy at a discount online the when they need a hand go to the local and literally EXPECT the dealer to service the thing, which is i believe the point the OP is making , and a valid one it can be in that circumstance.

Yeah, Mike, I agree with you in spirit. Actually, I agree with you completely. I guess all I'm getting at is that a whole lot of shops all over the country both sell stuff and service/repair stuff (regardless of whether or not they originally sold it). They advertise themselves as being "Factory Authorized". Service/maintenance/repair is an important part of their revenue stream. Service/maintenance/repair costs money. Think about all the car dealerships, the small engine repair shops, the appliance repair businesses, the musical instrument repair shops, the sewing machine shops, and on and on. Yes, they may sell stuff, but at the same time, they depend in part on those things needing attention coming through the door to keep making a living. I can't imagine anyone buying something online and then taking it to a local shop expecting to get any sort of service or repair for free, unless there was an applicable factory warranty that the local shop recognized and for which they'd be reimbursed. Rick

Nonprophet said:

As with anything else, it works both ways. A lot of the most vocal critics of online competition more than likely buy things at Walmart, Amazon, etc. just doing like everyone else does and trying to save money. Sometimes it's a fine balance between wanting to support local businesses while not encouraging overly high prices.

For example, I just bought a plasma TV for my bday this past weekend. Best Buy had it one sale for $519, our local shop had it for $579. I asked the local guys if they'd split the difference with me at $550. They did, and everyone's happy except the big corporate box store.

The bottom line is that everyone is trying to do the best for themselves that they can. Our local stove shop wants $2,850 for a new no-frills Jotul 500, and they best they would do is take $100 off. Other dealers sold the same stove for about $1,800. Sorry, but I'm not throwing away $900 to support a local shop--especially when I do the install myself.......

A university professor did an interesting study a few years ago on people in residential neighborhoods who are proactive in the extreme about enforcing the speed limit on their street. Some write down license plates of offenders and turn them into the cops, some make their own very large speed limit signs and put them in their yard, other use safety cones, and other still borrow radar guns from the cops----you get the idea. So this professor located about 20 of these "speed limits zealots" in his city, and had his students follow the property owners around when they were driving around town. Can you guess the results of the study??

That's right, over 85% of the most vocal "don't speed on our street!!" proponents had NO PROBLEM in speeding through other residential neighborhoods, and several were caught speeding on their own street!!

Moral of the story is that often times the most vocal are the most guilty of the very thing that they complain about........


NP

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Now thats a great study and a great story

I have a specific situation with a person who is selling and installing apple stoves on line and he is local to us. He sends the customers into the showroom where I work to look at the stoves and get the information. This person does not even have a warehouse he picks up the stoves from a distributor the day of the install. When these stoves break down the customers call us for warranty service work. We have to provide warranty parts for free. This is why I am soured on internet sales. We can't come close to competing with his prices. I personally do not heavily promote the apple stoves because the distributor has not helped us in this matter.
Any information I have I love to share it with the customer but I'm just a bit put off by online sales because the the online apple stove salesman. I'm sure there are plenty of great online sales company and I did not mean to offend. If I don't sell a product a customer needs I will do all I can to lead them in the rite direction as well. I also want people to know as the person who greets the customers and answers the phone the most the customers who purchase thier stoves from us will always be top priority. The person who gets the stove from the apple stove salesman will still be helped but only after we have helped our repeat customers.

I enjoy the ones who call for service, on a unit that was purchased either online or from my competition and DEMANDS service, which I am happy to provide...
"certainly sir, we can get to you in 3 days at 3PM"
"THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE! YOU WILL COME TODAY, NOW"
"I'm sorry sir, we have no service tech available until Thursday at 3PM"
"UNBELIEVABLE, YOU PEOPLE...BLAH BLAH"
"Sir, have you tried contacting the dealership you got the unit from, they may be able to service you sooner?"
"I'VE BEEN CALLING THEM FOR THE LAST 3 DAYS!, they won't return my calls"

cue the inner chuckle.
I think most of us are out to do the best we can, given what we have, for the most people we can.
Not all businesses are created equal, and some dealers have strengths in sales and other service, some both. It's a hard environment sometimes, but there must be something we like about it...cuz we're all here discussing it. More power to the guys doing their best, and poo poo on the Dirty Rotten Scoundrels (a very funny film with Steve Martin and Michael Caine).

I've been a "buy local" guy for a long time. I still am, but not so unequivocally anymore. Too many times I spent the extra money to support the local shop and walked out of the store saying to myself "that was stupid of me. I just paid more than I had to and the guy wasn't even nice to me".
The other day I bought tires online from tirerack.com after shopping around locally at Sears and the local tire seller that has a folksy ad "...and the coffee's on us" on the local radio station. Mr. Folksy's shop wasn't so folksy when I got there. His employees didn't even know about the deal he was offering and just weren't that interested in helping me. I have no interest in promoting tirerack, but the salesman on the phone (in Indiana) acted like he really wanted my business. He was patient, helpful and informative. I gave him the order.

I brought the tires to be installed to my local service station (more local and smaller than the Folksy local tire shop) even though they were more expensive than Sears. The guy was a grump. As I was leaving I thought to myself, "I feel like an idiot. I just paid more than I had to just to support this guy and he acted like my business was an intrusion to his life. Sears was cheaper and friendlier. Now, I'll go to the local guy only when I really need to.
The moral of the story - Local people need to earn my business too.

Rick, I work in the realm of commercial/industrial grade sewing equipment. I have 7 specialized industrial sewing machines in my studio and all are in benches with 1/2hp motors (all perform specialized functions). In addition, I have a fleet of home machines, now numbering in the neighborhood of a dozen, most are "vintage" (it's a disease). The head alone on my latest acquistion weighs over 100 lbs., so when the the industrial portion of the fleet needs repair the mechanic in question makes a "house call", getting a machine "fixed" is rarely as simple as putting it in the back seat and simply driving to the local "sew 'n' vac" shop! Without question, I could pull out the parts manuals for any of my commericial machinery and order the part from an on-line source and maybe install it successfully, but my 30 odd yrs. of experience has taught me the value of good working, respectful relationships with mechanics/dealers who strive to remain current with industry trends and current technologies. I am defiitely capable of proper adjustment to the equipment I own, and I'm able to "time" them myself, but there really is no substitute for an experienced mechanic when the inevitable occurs or one of the more "senior" machines requires a "spa day". My expertise is in using the machinery to effect a product... I leave the heavy duty technical stuff to the guys who have devoted their lives to mastering that aspect of the business. And it's for that reason that I decided to suck it up, pay the state sales tax ($200+) along with the $200 more "buying local" cost.

I have known the guy who sold me the machine for many years now. He's helped me out when I've been in a jam and faced a steep deadline. I've helped him out by allowing hesitant and uncertain customers to his store to visit my shop to "look, see, try" commercial machinery before "forking over the pork" to buy one; it used to be that you could visit a local dealer and try out a commercial machine, but times being what they are it's now unusual to find commercial quality machinery on a sales floor, let alone some of the highly specialized models I've acquired over the years. I could not, in good conscience, purchase something from a distant, low-price "dealer" and then feel good about expecting him service it for perpetuity, even though I know he would. Certainly, routine maintenance and repair is part and parcel of his business (a large chunk of it, actually) and I've been the beneficiary of it over the years. That was a big part of my decision to buy my new machine from him! I He is young, hip, and stays current... I like that I bought a top of the line machine from his business and I like that he was able to actually see it, set it up, and play around with it in his shop before delivering it to me. Nothing like hands-on exposure to the latest and greatest a company like Juki has to offer. A "good business deal" benefits both parties equally... at least to my mind.

I grew up in a very small community, I work in a trade that's specialized and where most of us know each other and our common suppliers/dealers. I operate a small business and while I'm anything but cavalier about purchasing equipment for my business I also pride myself on valuing the resource of professional relationships I've cultivated over the years. Price isn't always everything when you take the long view.

mo burns said:

I have a specific situation with a person who is selling and installing apple stoves on line and he is local to us. He sends the customers into the showroom where I work to look at the stoves and get the information. This person does not even have a warehouse he picks up the stoves from a distributor the day of the install. When these stoves break down the customers call us for warranty service work. We have to provide warranty parts for free. This is why I am soured on internet sales. We can't come close to competing with his prices. I personally do not heavily promote the apple stoves because the distributor has not helped us in this matter.
Any information I have I love to share it with the customer but I'm just a bit put off by online sales because the the online apple stove salesman. I'm sure there are plenty of great online sales company and I did not mean to offend. If I don't sell a product a customer needs I will do all I can to lead them in the rite direction as well. I also want people to know as the person who greets the customers and answers the phone the most the customers who purchase thier stoves from us will always be top priority. The person who gets the stove from the apple stove salesman will still be helped but only after we have helped our repeat customers.

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Apple stoves would have 2 strikes if I was in your position. The first time it happened, I call Apple and tell them it stops now, or I will sell off my remaining Apple stock on ebay. I would tell them I dont care how they need to fix the problem, but to fix it. It happens a second time and I follow thru on my promise, except:
I would keep one very shoddy looking Apple stove on display and sell hard against it.
That is exactly what I did with VC when they started whoring their product around. Well not exactly, that was before ebay, but you get the idea

thechimneysweep said:

It just makes me so angry when these people come in and get the education from us, waste our time, and shop on-line.

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Mo, I have a brick-and-mortar store, and can appreciate your viewpoint. However, I'm also one of those dreaded internet retailers, which affords me another point of view.

Imagine posting a hearth product website with the goal of providing every bit of information a consumer might need to make an informed buying decision. Keep adding more info every spare minute you get for over a decade, until your website runs over 900 pages. Put in a toll-free number so people can call you on your dime for answers they can't find on the site. Patiently answer the call volume generated by 70,000 website visitors per month. Also respond to an average of 25-30 E-mail questions generated by the website every day, most of which turn into back-and-forth info-sharing exchanges that help the consumer choose the ideal product.

Then get the final E-mail or phone call thanking you for all your efforts, and letting you know they bought from their local dealer, who wasn't nearly as knowledgeable or helpful as you have been. It is the other side of your coin, and it happens every day.

This is a free marketplace, my brother, and there's no reason to let it make you angry. Hang in there, educate your customers, strive for excellence, and you will succeed.

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Tom...I wish you were in Va so I could give you my business.
I clicked the link in your signature and recognized your site immediately. I've come across it several times in my recent research.

Tom…I wish you were in Va so I could give you my business. I clicked the link in your signature and recognized your site immediately. I’ve come across it several times in my recent research.

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Chris, thanks for stopping by, and for emphasizing what I feel is the key point in this discussion. Wood stoves are a big, heavy, and expensive commodity. Installation requires some knowledge and expertise. As a result, most shoppers are predisposed to purchase from a local dealer, who can deliver and install the stove, pipe and chimney, and who will be readily available for any service that might be needed in the future. Based upon the fact that we don't sell 70,000 stoves per month, it is safe to say that most of our site visitors, like you, are simply doing research.

For example, let's say you're looking for a free-standing wood stove to heat a 1500 sq.ft. house in VA. You visit several online wood stove sites, and learn;

You're going to need about a 2 cu.ft. firebox.
Based on the layout of your house, you'll be better off with a convection, rather than radiant heater.
The appearance and ease of maintenance of a porcelain finish appeals to you.

Having narrowed your search a bit, with a few clicks of the mouse you're able to compare the qualifying models by:
Efficiency
Warranty protection
EPA emiissions
Physical size
Size of the viewing window
Floor protection and clearance requirements

Hypothetically, let's say by now you've decided on a Pacific Energy Spectrum Classic, which you happened to find on our website. Focusing on that page, you can:
View and choose from all the optional porcelain colors
View and choose from all the door, leg and trivet options
View current West Coast pricing, and approximate shipping costs to a local terminal or right to your door
Call us toll-free or click the ORDER OR INQUIRE button to E-mail any questions you might still have

Being predisposed to buy locally, you visit your neighborhood PE dealer (who has one black-painted Vista insert on display), and order a PE Spectrum in green porcelain, with gold door, legs and trivet. Your dealer takes your money, and tells you he'll call you when your stove gets there so you can come pick it up, along with the hearth, stovepipe and chimney you'll need for the installation. Because of all your online research, the transaction takes about 15 minutes.

Later, the same dealer is overheard complaining bitterly about unfair competition from online wood stove shops. He should consider the possibility that, in the great majority of cases, online stove shops are more help than hindrance to his local sales efforts.

Very true that online resources (including Hearth.com) can actually create sales. The way we handle internet sales, as I mentioned before:
We dont sell a product that a consumer can readily buy online via e commerce. If someone local to us does happen to find something out of the area cheaper than we have it listed for, we simply ask to see the quote and we match the price in order to keep the business local. (Unless the price happens to be lower than our cost as is the case with Traeger once in a while)

Franks said:

mo burns said:

I have a specific situation with a person who is selling and installing apple stoves on line and he is local to us. He sends the customers into the showroom where I work to look at the stoves and get the information. This person does not even have a warehouse he picks up the stoves from a distributor the day of the install. When these stoves break down the customers call us for warranty service work. We have to provide warranty parts for free. This is why I am soured on internet sales. We can't come close to competing with his prices. I personally do not heavily promote the apple stoves because the distributor has not helped us in this matter.
Any information I have I love to share it with the customer but I'm just a bit put off by online sales because the the online apple stove salesman. I'm sure there are plenty of great online sales company and I did not mean to offend. If I don't sell a product a customer needs I will do all I can to lead them in the rite direction as well. I also want people to know as the person who greets the customers and answers the phone the most the customers who purchase thier stoves from us will always be top priority. The person who gets the stove from the apple stove salesman will still be helped but only after we have helped our repeat customers.

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Apple stoves would have 2 strikes if I was in your position. The first time it happened, I call Apple and tell them it stops now, or I will sell off my remaining Apple stock on ebay. I would tell them I dont care how they need to fix the problem, but to fix it. It happens a second time and I follow thru on my promise, except:
I would keep one very shoddy looking Apple stove on display and sell hard against it.
That is exactly what I did with VC when they started whoring their product around. Well not exactly, that was before ebay, but you get the idea

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The VC Whoring thier product out made me laugh so hard I just about spit out my lunch.