advise on picking out new epa stove to replace old timer stove.

[eernest4]

Right now, I,m burning a 12 cu ft--- 2ftx2ftx3ft -- 1/4 plate steel "old timer" pre epa basement stove with 8 inch single wall black 28 ga. pipe. It is rear collar 8 inch flue to 90 deg elbow,then straight up 32 inchs to 90 deg elbow,then up stanting 9 inch pipe to 90 deg
elbow & 27 inch straight run into chiminey.

It has tons of draft & can really make a fire roar, but eats 1 wheelbarrow of wood every 2 - 3hr & reloading every 2 hr is getting really old, really qiuck, especially when I should be sleeping at nite, not up reloading a stove because the house is getting cold.

So,I would think I'd rather have a epa stove with a long run time that uses less wood & I dont need to worry about producing smoke in a neighborhood.

Sick of going outside to check the chimney @ 3 am & 24 deg for too much smoke.

Because the stove is in the basement, there is 900 sq ft of basement 2 heat, then
heat gos up the staircase to the first floor to heat 900 sq ft there and up a second stair way
to the second floor to heat another 900 sq ft, so 900 x 3=2700 sq ft, not counting the atic,
which i am not trying to heat, even though some heat gets there somehow.

I have no room left anywheres on the first floor for a wood stove as my backup pellet stove is already plooped in the middle of the living room outside wall. And I was able to do that only because of thru the wall double wall insulated vent pipe & wall thimble.


so, need to heat 2700 sq ft minimum----- more capacity would be better, yet but not absolutely necessary.

Stove or hot air add on furnace goes in basement & overheating is no problem because I'm only down there to feed the stove.

Question #1----- Will 28 gague black single wall withstand 1200 deg because I hear someplace
that epa secondary combustion stoves put out 1200 deg stack temps. Is that true/right/correct???

Q#2----- The stove I am considering but not made my mind up on uses 6 inch top colar,
so is it alright to use a 6 inch to 8 inch black converter into my existing 8 inch pipes with existing 8 inch damper.

All clearances to combustable surfaces are already further away that code requires.

The epa secondary burn stove I am thinking about is the drolet model # HT2000,
EXTRA LARGE, rated 90,000btu & 2700 sq ft for $1000.oo & ship
www.northerntools.com
www.drolet.ca

Does anyone here run that stove & what is your experience with it.

Does anyone have any suggestions of other stoves or hot air add on basement furnace
that I should also be considering.

Anyone have experience with basement hot air add on furnaces? Are they epa so i dont have to go out @ 3 am to check chimney for smoke.

are basement hot air add on furnace as fuel efficient as I presume/think/hope the drolet---ht2000 --epa stove might be.

I kind of like the idea of the epa stove because it has a large viewing glass and i like to watch the flames, which i can't do with the solid steel door of my current smoking dragon
stove (as gooserider calls them).

please feel free to comment.
thank you very much for your advise & opinions.

 

[begreen]

Before assisting, lets start off from the beginning. The best designs are sometimes when you start with a clean slate. So let's look at the whole problem at least in theory. Otherwise one can keep trying bandaid fixes that seem cheap in the short term but may not really solve the core problem. Over the long term that can get expensive.

Often we get locked into a certain mindset and can't see the forest for the trees due to inertia. This is where I was when we first moved into our house. There were so many issues, that dealing with core problems seemed out of the question. So let's define the problem first. Then we can examine options. Please answer questions 1-5 to start with.

We have a ??? year old house with about 1800sq ft. of main living space and a 900 sq ft basement home in CT with a heating problem.

Questions:
1) How well insulated is the basement, the house? What type of windows and what condition?
2) Is there a primary heating system? If yes, what type? Age? How much fuel was being used annually before the woodstove + pellet stove?
3) How often is the basement used for living purposes? What is it's layout, open?
4) What is the first floor layout like, open space or closed off rooms?
5) How long do you plan on living in this home?

 

[swestall]

Hey! I went to the manufacturer's site and looked over the PDF for that stove; it looks to be very well constructed with the secondary burn control up top where it can do some good. The PDF also is very good in terms of how to install and operate this stove. If you have'nt read it, you should pay special attention to the installation details and clearances to make sure you have what is specified. There are a a couple of other folks on this site that have direct experience with stoves with burn tubes, I hope they will contribute some info on operational simplicity, etc.
On your question regarding add on stoves, they are out there but I don't have any experience with them. I have often though that if someone had ductwork it would be a fairly straight forward project to add on a duct by the wood stove (esp in a basement) with an input fan to move the heat into the ductwork. When it hits the vertical sections nature should do the work for you.
I hope these thoughts help.

 

[eernest4]

Thank you swestall,

I will go to drolet.ca & download their manuel & read it.

I am looking to get away from constant refueling (want a long burn time) & burning large quanties of wood.
And having to check the chimney from outside to see if it smoking.

 

[derbygreg]

Your stove uses a lot of wood. Generally, I can go about 24 hours on a wheelbarrel full of wood and there are always coals to start the fire with after about 8 hours.

You will be better off with any new EPA stove.

I have always liked the idea of an indoor wood furnace, but never seen one in operation. There are a number of manufacturers out there, a lot less than for stoves.

 

[eernest4]

Before assisting, lets start off from the beginning. The best designs are sometimes when you start with a clean slate. So let's look at the whole problem at least in theory. Otherwise one can keep trying bandaid fixes that seem cheap in the short term but may not really solve the core problem. Over the long term that can get expensive.

Often we get locked into a certain mindset and can't see the forest for the trees due to inertia. This is where I was when we first moved into our house. There were so many issues, that dealing with core problems seemed out of the question. So let's define the problem first. Then we can examine options. Please answer questions 1-5 to start with.

We have a ??? year old house with about 1800sq ft. of main living space and a 900 sq ft basement home in CT with a heating problem.

Questions:
1) How well insulated is the basement, the house? What type of windows and what condition?
2) Is there a primary heating system? If yes, what type? Age? How much fuel was being used annually before the woodstove + pellet stove?
3) How often is the basement used for living purposes? What is it's layout, open?
4) What is the first floor layout like, open space or closed off rooms?
5) How long do you plan on living in this home?

House was built in 1910 & was originally heated by wood & then coal & then fuel oil & now , back to wood.

97 years old.
The basement is stone with cement for walls, dug down below ground level. No insulation.
When you stand on the cement basement floor, your face is @ about ground level.

Wood windows,original,fair condition. Screen & storm windows on first & second floors.

Becket retention head oil burner with hot water boiler rated 150,000 btu , burns 1.6 gal/hr
from 80 deg hollow nozzel. Boiler 1959. Becket burner 1985. I overhaul the becket & clean out the heat exchanger annually. I assembled & installed the burner myself in 1985.
I relined the firebox with retort cement myself in 1986

About 4,500.oo to 5000.oo/ yr when oil was only 1.95 a gal. Now it would cost 1/3 more.
another 1700.oo or about 6,700.oo yr

Never use the basement for living purposes. Tools & wood stove. Basement is open now,
because I knocked down the interior walls when I installed the wood stove, last year. DIY

first floor , living rm & dining room adjacent (4ft) from celar stairway that heat comes up,
so no problem getting hot air into living rm,dining rm. Cold air comes pouring down the celar stairway at stair level.
Kitchen , 4 ft the other direction, again ,no problem getting heat in or cold air down to basement.

My bedroom & mom's bedroom, other side of kitchen, 12 feet away from celar stairs with just doors ,36 inch wide to open for heat transfer. Can get addiquate heat from kitchen after kirtchen has heated up, provided bedroom doors are left open.

Closing bedroom doors means using electic space heaters.

Upstairs hallway,about 12 ft from celar stairway, but heat transfer from living rm is good because tons of cold air come pouring down the upstars @ stair level & the heat rises.

The problem exists when the heat gets to the top of the stairway, there is a lofty ceiling
over the top half of the stairway that the heat goes up into that does me no good at all.

Hot air must drop down 2 ft to make it under the top of the stairway door. from there is a 8 ft hallway, 4 ft to upstairs office & 4 ft to upstairs TV computer den.

Used to be a 2 family house, but I occupy the entire house now. Second floor is mostly storage except for office which i dont use much anymore & tv-computer room ,where I spend a lot of time. I have electric space heaters for both rooms, but only heat when I am in the room.

Without any heat except what makes it up the stairs from first floor, rooms are 60 to 62 with stairway doors open and 55 to 58 with stairway doors shut.

I been thinking to move out within 10 years, but I could end up staying.
im really not sure what will happen.

House is not insulated. Needs new $10,000.oo roof before I can even think about insulated siding, which could run another $8000.oo

4 layers of old roof shingles will have to be stripped off, thats why it cost so much.

House has old wood shingles on outside and plaster & lathes ,inside. There is about a 4 inch air space between the two.

I really dont intend to insulate the house because if anyone buys it, they will only bulldoze the house & build a commercial structure or small strip mall. the value of the house is almost irrevalant compaired to the value of the commercial property & location.

 

[begreen]

OK, this is a big old box. I can appreciate your dilemma. If it needs a roof soon, that's got to be a priority. Your setup has me wondering if a wood boiler wouldn't be the most efficient system for heating wtih wood. The other thought was to reverse the setup and put the pellet stove in the basement and a 3 cu ft stove on the first floor. But it sounds like you could get away with not heating the basement.

If you go with the Drolet, it should be a big improvement as far as wood consumption goes. But you might want to confirm the firebox dimensions. They only give the width and depth, no height. If it is 10" then it's a 2.3 cu ft stove. If 12" it's 2.8 cu ft. Maybe someone can chime in and provide this.

For a little bit more I would prefer the Englander 30 NCL. It has a 3.5 cu ft box and tech support that's hard to beat.

 

[Jimbob]

Question #1----- Will 28 gague black single wall withstand 1200 deg because I hear someplace
that epa secondary combustion stoves put out 1200 deg stack temps. Is that true/right/correct???

Q#2----- The stove I am considering but not made my mind up on uses 6 inch top colar,
so is it alright to use a 6 inch to 8 inch black converter into my existing 8 inch pipes with existing 8 inch damper.

All clearances to combustable surfaces are already further away that code requires.

The epa secondary burn stove I am thinking about is the drolet model # HT2000,
EXTRA LARGE, rated 90,000btu & 2700 sq ft for $1000.oo & ship
www.northerntools.com
www.drolet.ca

Does anyone here run that stove & what is your experience with it.

Anyone have experience with basement hot air add on furnaces? Are they epa so i dont have to go out @ 3 am to check chimney for smoke.

are basement hot air add on furnace as fuel efficient as I presume/think/hope the drolet---ht2000 --epa stove might be.

I kind of like the idea of the epa stove because it has a large viewing glass and i like to watch the flames, which i can't do with the solid steel door of my current smoking dragon
stove (as gooserider calls them).

please feel free to comment.
thank you very much for your advise & opinions.

Answer 1. Yes, that black pipe can withstand the stack temps created by those stoves, it's used all the time. The surface temp of the pipe on our stove never gets to 1200, though I've briefly had it up to about 1000 (oops!)

Answer 2. It should work, that's how my father-in law plumbed his stove, it isn't a DROLET, but similar. He did need to reduce his draft with the damper.

Also I should add that the father in law used to have a wood furnace, but had to remove it because insurance insisted it no longer be used. He feels the wood stove isn't quite as efficient overall as his old "sure-fire" brand of furnace was.
The reason he didn't just go with another furnace is because it would have been quite a bit more costly. Around here, wood furnaces are more than $3000, as opposed to the $1000 he paid for the stove. He doesn't dislike the stove, he just found the furnace used a bit less wood over the course of a winter.
With either setup he only needs to clean his chimney once a year, and he gets very little in the way of soot. For an old wood furnace,~ 1980, it burned surprisingly clean.

 

[MALogger]

Englander has an add on air furnace model 28-3500 that can be bought for $1239 I am toying with the idea of getting one of those. I am waiting for some feedback for it on the boiler room forum!

Craig

 

[elkimmeg]

Question #1----- Will 28 gague black single wall withstand 1200 deg because I hear someplace
that epa secondary combustion stoves put out 1200 deg stack temps. Is that true/right/correct???

Q#2----- The stove I am considering but not made my mind up on uses 6 inch top colar,
so is it alright to use a 6 inch to 8 inch black converter into my existing 8 inch pipes with existing 8 inch damper.

All clearances to combustable surfaces are already further away that code requires.

The epa secondary burn stove I am thinking about is the drolet model # HT2000,
EXTRA LARGE, rated 90,000btu & 2700 sq ft for $1000.oo & ship
www.northerntools.com
www.drolet.ca

Does anyone here run that stove & what is your experience with it.

Anyone have experience with basement hot air add on furnaces? Are they epa so i dont have to go out @ 3 am to check chimney for smoke.

are basement hot air add on furnace as fuel efficient as I presume/think/hope the drolet---ht2000 --epa stove might be.

I kind of like the idea of the epa stove because it has a large viewing glass and i like to watch the flames, which i can't do with the solid steel door of my current smoking dragon
stove (as gooserider calls them).

please feel free to comment.
thank you very much for your advise & opinions.

Answer 1. Yes, that black pipe can withstand the stack temps created by those stoves, it's used all the time. The surface temp of the pipe on our stove never gets to 1200, though I've briefly had it up to about 1000 (oops!) No 28 gage is too thin the minimum gage black pipe for woodstoves is 24 gage according to code

 

[Jimbob]

My bad....I assumed ALL black stovepipe was the correct guage. He probably meant 24 guage pipe, unless 28 guage is available out there.

 

[eernest4]

I bought the most expensive black pipe they had at the hardward store, I dont think they even carry the thinner pipe because its not up to code.

I am sure I have the thicker stovepipe, I just dont understand metal gague terms.

If it is anything like electrical wire, the smaller the number, the thicker the wire. 12 ga.wire = 20 amps, 10 ga.wire =30amps

10 gague wire is about 40% thicker than 12 gague & so can hold more current flow.

 

[BrotherBart]

I bought the most expensive black pipe they had at the hardward store, I dont think they even carry the thinner pipe because its not up to code.

I am sure I have the thicker stovepipe, I just dont understand metal gague terms.

If it is anything like electrical wire, the smaller the number, the thicker the wire. 12 ga.wire = 20 amps, 10 ga.wire =30amps

10 gague wire is about 40% thicker than 12 gauge & so can hold more current flow.

Same deal. Smaller is thicker gauge wise. 24 gauge minimum for stove pipe. 22 gauge is better. 7 gauge is what a lot of wood stoves are made of.

 

[jpl1nh]

OK, this is a big old box. I can appreciate your dilemma. If it needs a roof soon, that's got to be a priority. Your setup has me wondering if a wood boiler wouldn't be the most efficient system for heating wtih wood. The other thought was to reverse the setup and put the pellet stove in the basement and a 3 cu ft stove on the first floor. But it sounds like you could get away with not heating the basement.

If you go with the Drolet, it should be a big improvement as far as wood consumption goes. But you might want to confirm the firebox dimensions. They only give the width and depth, no height. If it is 10" then it's a 2.3 cu ft stove. If 12" it's 2.8 cu ft. Maybe someone can chime in and provide this.

For a little bit more I would prefer the Englander 30 NCL. It has a 3.5 cu ft box and tech support that's hard to beat.

I agree with Be Green, hook a wood boiler up in tandem with your existing boiler. Then you're not trying to heat the uninsulated basment and you're delivering the heat right to where you want it; in the living space.

 

[eernest4]

well, the wood boiler is the best option, but way too expensive when I am looking at a new roof in the spring.

And for now, I have to get away from up all nite feeding the stove, I just can't take it . my body needs its sleep.

I find out from drolet.ca that from the top of the fire bricks to the bottom of the secondary air pipes is 11&7;/8 inches, but drolet only recommends filling the fire box to the top of the refractory bricks , which is only 8 or 9 inchs, I think. I need to look at the manuel I downloaded to see the size of the brick. That will determine the hieght of the wood load.

drolet says a run time of 8 to 12 hours with a full load burn depending a LOT on the wood type and air settings.
Drolet also specifies that they want a 12 ft run of 6 inch pipe for the best efficiency, but I dont have the room for that much 6 inch pipe. I can change the 8 inch pipe to 6 inch, but it wont be anything like a 12 ft run, maybe a 6 ft run. I should be able to simulate the draft drolet wants for most efficient opperation with the proper setting of a stack draft control to drop my draft down, because if anything , i am severely overdrafted.
anyway ,I look at the fire brick demensions and get back to you.

Drolet does not seem to have any new england dealers,which is one thing i dont like;especially since the stove needs to be assembled as to installing the fire bricks & secondary air tubes.

I have not heard from mike yet at englander stoves but he has been busy with thanksgiving & the family, so it is more than understandable.

I still think that 4 now, this winter, I get either a wood hot air add on furnace or a epa stove, something quick that I can install without decommissioning my oil burner in the middle of heating season & leave the wood fired hot water boiler for next summer ,if money is still available by then, after paying 4 a new roof.

wow-did this thread ever get buried over the holidays,on page 8!!

 

[begreen]

Sounds like the Drolet may be a 2cu ft firebox. The Englander is much larger. If you are looking for heat, get the Englander. Maybe start a new thread paging Mike for info about the 30NCL.

BTW, if you want to understand our concerns about safe basement stove installations, read this thread. https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/11251/

Plan on including an outside air kit on the stove.