Back draft choking me out

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Dana-T

New Member
Nov 8, 2017
9
Maine
Hi folks, I just installed a older Fisher Baby Bear. I put all new fire brick in and installed a 6" x 13" steel baffle like I learned about on this forum. The problem I'm having is, this works excellent with the door cracked open but when I close the door and try to use the air vent if huffs and puffs smoke into the room. Can't seem to find a good working position.
Is is installed to a decent chimney with all the pipe joints sealed.
Last night it worked beautifully, no smoke in the room, then before retiring I closed the door and at first opened the vent most the way to get it going a bit better, then it started puffing. So I closed the vent most the way. It was ok when I went to bed but I awoke a couple hours later to the whole first floor with smoke. So I closed the vent the rest of the way and went back to bed.
Are these pretty temperamental to adjust?
Thanks for any suggestions before my wife makes me trade it in.
 
Information like chimney height wood condition ie how dry it is and temperature will help get the ball rolling on getting this figured out. The older stoves normally breath easy for what it's worth.
 
Did you check the all the chimney for any obstruction. Don't forget the cap screen.
 
1. Make sure wood is dry enough and it's established before closing it down.

2. Check the chimney and make sure it's clean and no obstructions. Also let us know the specs of the chimney.

3. Make sure your house is not super tight. Crack a window and see if that fixes it.

4. Also some of the stoves with the air knobs had little nubs that keep the knob from closing completely. Not sure about that one. Some people cut the nubs off to allow the stove to be damped down even farther. Maybe try checking it.

Someone that knows more about the baby bear stoves will probably know about the air control.
 
This belongs in the classic forum
 
All roads lead back to dry wood..

Seriously though, there's something wrong with the drafting in the chimney. I'd get that checked out if you cant manage it yourself.
 
Information like chimney height wood condition ie how dry it is and temperature will help get the ball rolling on getting this figured out. The older stoves normally breath easy for what it's worth.
The chimney is probably 16-20'. Didn't have this problem with previous two stoves.
Good dry wood. Temperature other day about 50'. Again, didn't happen with previous stoves. Just wondering if there was some trick to these stoves.
 
All roads lead back to dry wood..

Seriously though, there's something wrong with the drafting in the chimney. I'd get that checked out if you cant manage it yourself.
Works fine with for cracked open. Just acts up when using the air control on the front of the door. Haven't played around with it enough yet to see if I'm opening it too far or closing it down too much too quickly.
 
1. Make sure wood is dry enough and it's established before closing it down.

2. Check the chimney and make sure it's clean and no obstructions. Also let us know the specs of the chimney.

3. Make sure your house is not super tight. Crack a window and see if that fixes it.

4. Also some of the stoves with the air knobs had little nubs that keep the knob from closing completely. Not sure about that one. Some people cut the nubs off to allow the stove to be damped down even farther. Maybe try checking it.

Someone that knows more about the baby bear stoves will probably know about the air control.
 
I've looked up the chimney with a mirror and looks all clear. No nubs on the control knob.

Somwith the door open it draws and burns fine, no smoke coming in the room. But if I close the door, open the air control full, it gets roaring and then starts puffing a back draft. I then probably closed it down too much too quickly because got a really strong bunch of smoke out the air cap.
I'm thinking I just need to l learn better how to control it with the air intake knob. Maybe had too much wood in it too. Need to try smaller fire.
 
I've looked up the chimney with a mirror and looks all clear. No nubs on the control knob.

Somwith the door open it draws and burns fine, no smoke coming in the room. But if I close the door, open the air control full, it gets roaring and then starts puffing a back draft. I then probably closed it down too much too quickly because got a really strong bunch of smoke out the air cap.
I'm thinking I just need to l learn better how to control it with the air intake knob. Maybe had too much wood in it too. Need to try smaller fire.

During daylight hours put your phone on camera looking up towards to top of the chimney and see if you can see daylight. Or better yet climb on the roof with a spotlight. Safely

Take a picture. Zoom in and see what you can see.

Crack a window and see if that helps.

Puffing while it roaring makes me think clogged chimney. Puffing while turned down makes me think house is sealed to tight or chimney issue.
 
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Temperature other day about 50'.

Without knowing your stove, guessing this is part of the problem. You're not getting enough draft, especially when you choke the fire down. Could try running a smaller fire with the air open more. Or wait till it gets colder and try again.
 
Without knowing your stove, guessing this is part of the problem. You're not getting enough draft, especially when you choke the fire down. Could try running a smaller fire with the air open more. Or wait till it gets colder and try again.

Agreed, 50 is getting warm for a good draft.
 
buy a moisture meter and check that wood
 
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Looks like this weekend we will get to see if the temperature makes a difference. Going into the teens.

Maybe I missed it but what are the specs on the chimney?

Big difference between an inside or outside chimney, masonry, steel, lined, and height.

Some very knowledgeable people on here have stated they think it could be because it's too warm.

While I can't argue with that possibility because it definately is a possibility it just seems like there is some other factor in the mix.
 
wow the whole floor was smoked out? I would think it's a bigger issue than just under-seasoned wood. Definitely try a small fire first and build it up.
 
If you take the baffle out and run it, do you get smoke problems? perhaps the size baffle isn't working with the draft you have. Chimney draft is different in every home due to chimney height, stove location, loose house vs tight house, elevation, tree's, roof pitch ect.. If your certain that your wood supply is seasoned at or near 20% moisture content per split piece, I would figure the homemade baffle would be the culprit, try the stove without, if the stove functions with out smoke then revisit the baffle idea with different changes, pm @coaly
 
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Check the cap & top of the stack. The bottom may be clean, as it is the warmest part. Up top is the coldest part and will accumulate the most crud.
 
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My guess is, perhaps the fire is out-gassing too fast for the amount of air allowed in through the intake. Add to that the possibility that the chimney is not heating up quickly enough (and/or it is too warm out, your stack too short, or your flue is oversized) and cold air is overpowering the rising smoke.

What are the dimensions of your flue, and is an insulated liner or just clay tile?
 
Hi folks, I just installed a older Fisher Baby Bear. I put all new fire brick in and installed a 6" x 13" steel baffle like I learned about on this forum. The problem I'm having is, this works excellent with the door cracked open but when I close the door and try to use the air vent if huffs and puffs smoke into the room. Can't seem to find a good working position.
Is is installed to a decent chimney with all the pipe joints sealed.
Last night it worked beautifully, no smoke in the room, then before retiring I closed the door and at first opened the vent most the way to get it going a bit better, then it started puffing. So I closed the vent most the way. It was ok when I went to bed but I awoke a couple hours later to the whole first floor with smoke. So I closed the vent the rest of the way and went back to bed.
Are these pretty temperamental to adjust?
Thanks for any suggestions before my wife makes me trade it in.

They are not temperamental at all when connected to the correct chimney.

First, I'm assuming the baffle plate is designed as shown in the Baffle thread in the Fisher section.
The rear of the plate needs to be setting on the rear brick retainers and the front angled upwards toward the low bend on the top.
You should have a 6 inch diameter chimney flue and preferably insulated for baffle that size.

Second, are you trying to heat more than 1000 square feet?

The smoke space above baffle plate where smoke exits must be no smaller than 28.26 square inches. If you're tying to connect the Baby Bear to a larger diameter chimney, the smoke space must be at least equal to the square inch area of the flue to the top. The amount of resistance in the system determines final baffle adjustment. Elbows, connector pipe, spark screen, and damper (as well as baffle) all add resistance to slow draft created by chimney. The more resistance, the larger the smoke space required to allow more heat to escape. The minimum smoke space works good with a top vent, no elbow, straight 6 inch connector pipe into a 6 inch insulated chimney. My test chimney was three 3 foot insulated chimney sections over a 8 foot indoor ceiling with single wall connector pipe. This is the only chimney that may require any additional resistance from a flue damper to slow velocity.

You didn't mention if you're using a flue damper. We need the flue diameter and height.

The intake should never be opened fully. Only spin it a few turns when starting. As fire catches, close down to 1 to 1 1/2 turns. 1/2 to 1 turn is common for normal heat output.

Is this a rear, top or side vent??

Baby Bear is the most susceptible to flutter than all the other models. The small firebox puts the intake opening very close to the fire. The flutter is a fast type of puffing not to be confused with the slower chugging you will get when the exhaust gasses cool and slow to the point of letting colder heavier air into the chimney. It sounds like your flue is too big for the stove and the rising gasses drop down allowing oxygen into the flue. As the rising gasses overcome the drop and rise again, this repeats until the air slugs make it down to the stove. This oxygen puffs back through the intake. In extreme cases with other problems such as mechanical exhaust fans in the building, or stack effect from heat rising in the building faster than rising gasses up the chimney, you get exhaust reversal which is probably what filled the house with smoke.

Tell your wife the last thing to blame is the stove.
#1 is the chimney, then system resistance, baffle adjustment, mechanical blowers or other appliances venting indoor air outside, fuel, operator error.
 
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the smoke space must be at least equal to the square inch area of the flue to the top...
The more resistance, the larger the smoke space required to allow more heat to escape.

Interesting... I was wondering if the baffle details might be a factor.
Great post!
 
Yeah, I don't think you're going to find "smoke space" used anywhere since it's a term I started using for a lack of a better term for the area the exhaust travels to get out of the firebox. I made and tested baffles in all the single door Fisher Stove models that never had factory baffles. They are similar to the baffles designed by Fisher research and development in 1980 for the double door Fireplace Series. They were designed for smoke reduction as the EPA regs became stricter in stages until 1988 when the strictest particle size became effective and they had to cease production.

Normally the baffle is not a factor since the resistance it adds in the firebox is very slight compared to all other resistance in the system. The "smoke space " square inch area is critical since that is what adds resistance in the firebox. (please notch the corners as shown in the Baffle Thread in the Fisher Forum. This prevents stagnation in the corners and gives more even heating of all radiating surfaces)!

That is the very simple explanation. To give you an idea of what the actual resistance to flow is, which reduces the draft the chimney creates, there are two tables that compare resistance coefficients of chimney components and effective resistance coefficients of stove inlet air dampers.

Resistance coefficients of chimney components are pressure drops (due to resistance, not buoyancy) in units of "velocity heads". It's easier to just use the numbers to get a good idea of how much resistance each component or firebox design creates. For those that want to know exactly what one of these "units" are; Mass density of the gas is d. Velocity in chimney is v. The formula to come up with 1 unit is 1/2 dv squared.
Below is resistance coefficients of chimney components;

Round elbow 45* ......... 0.2 - 0.7
Round elbow 90*...........0.5 - 1.5
90* sharp elbow (mitered) or breeching (smoke pipe inserted into brick chimney) 1.0 - 3.0
6 inch straight pipe per foot ........0.5 - 0.8
8 inch straight pipe per foot........ 0.4 - 0.6
Spark screen ..............0.5
Stove pipe damper Open negligible
Closed.......................5 - 20 (depends on metered hole size in damper plate)

Next is effective resistance coefficients of stove inlet air dampers;

Open door has a resistance of about 2.
(closing door has a resistance through intake of 10 - 40 Wide Open. When closed the resistance exceeds 10 times the wide open resistance. Dampers that close fully as on this stove have infinite resistance closed. (this is why the OP has no problem with door open) The air inlet resistance is what gets interesting; as chimney diameter increases, this resistance as the gasses expand and cool increases significantly.

Small stoves such as this have one inlet damper;
Pipe size in inches;...............4................5.................6...............7.................8
...............................................2 - 8.........5 - 20.........10 - 40......20 - 80.......30 - 120

All other Fisher Stoves have 2 inlet dampers so you can HALF those figures for all other Fishers.
This is why only the Baby Bear had the flutter (without baffle) on my test chimney and becomes more critical with flue diameter.

That shows how the larger chimney capable of more volume "sees" the small air intake and why it becomes more important for the right chimney diameter on smaller stoves. Maybe I preach that in the Fisher Forum a little too much. ;lol So the smoke space being equal to the flue diameter is negligible resistance. Like a flue damper, it slows velocity. The advantages of directing the heat in the firebox forward, burning more smoke particles far outweighs slowing velocity.

This data is from a table in ASHRAE Handbook and Product Directory, 1975 Equipment Volume, table 9 in chapter 26, American Society of Heating, air-conditioning and Refrigerating Engineers, NY 1975. A copy of this table is in The Woodburners Encyclopedia which Fisher recommended in the back of all manuals for further reading. It's the best book on wood burning in my opinion.
 
To the OP - the big guns are out on this one. @coaly ... excellent posts as always
 
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