Creosote

[jertola]

Last year I purchased 3 tons of stove chow pellets at the end of the season from Home Depot when they were dropping the prices to clear them out. When they were delivered, I noticed some water under the weather protectors, but dried it off and after opening a few bags the pellets seemed dry so I kept them. I burned maybe a half ton at the end of the season on room temp in my p61a. They seemed to burn ok so I thought nothing of it. Well I skipped my spring cleaning and now I was in for a shock when I did it in the fall. I actually had a small puddle of creosote under the exhaust fan and some that was more tar like on the inside of the ash pan door. I know damp pellets can cause this but they really didn't seem damp. Could running it on room temp in early spring cause this with the low burn temps and constantly turning on and off. Just wondering if I should I scrap the other 2.5 tons and avoid box stores in the future. Thx for the input.

Justin

 

[NYBurner]

I def notice a lot more buildup and ash with a low burn.

 

[Bioburner]

Crank it up on high for a good while to drive off the moisture. Stoves don't like low burns for extended times just like short trips on a cars engine and exhaust systems.

 

[heat seeker]

I definitely second Bioburner. Low and slow burning creates creosote. My stove manual calls for a high burn for, I think, at least 20 minutes daily to clean things out. The dealer also told me not to run the stove at less than #3 (out of 5). It does idle, due to the 'stat, but I make sure it gets a hot burn every day. In 5 years of burning, not a sign of creosote, and I burn whatever Tractor Supply is selling - not always the best of pellets.

 

[jertola]

Awesome. Thanks a lot guys. I'll crank her up for a couple of hours this weekend and see.

 

[railfanron]

I don't think room temp automatic would cause creosote to build up as the stove will actually burn hot for a short length of time versus stove temp or room temp manual that will burn low for a long length of time. If the pellets are not swelled up they shouldn't be wet. When they get wet they will swell or turn back into sawdust. They can't be dried out and be useable. I run my stove on room temp automatic all the time and I've burned 8 different kinds of pellets and some that spent more time outside than they should have and never saw this. My stove is running on automatic now and it's on high for about 20 minutes and then shuts down for 2 or 3 hours and then back on again.
Ron

 

[Lake Girl]

Where you live doesn't do you any favors with high humidity. Likely due to low burn but high humidity may be a factor. Was the stove originally set up with magnehelic?

 

[jertola]

Ok, so I've talked to two stove dealers and both of them told me that it was the Stove Chow pellets that I was using. One of them doesn't sell pellets and has nothing to gain so I tend to believe him. Also after cleaning the stove as best as I could and running it on stove temp 4 with the feed rate on 3, I actually had some more build up. I'm going to use different pellets this evening and run it hot to see what happens. The thing that concerns me is that now my exhaust fan is actually glued to the shaft with creosote. I may have to try using some carb cleaner or something to loosen it up. After all this, I'm giving these pellets to a friend and looking to get premium pellets. The second stove dealer that I visited tried selling me Energex Hardwood pellets. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Stove Chow and Energex Hardwood the exact same pellet? Anyway, my options are the Energex at $320, Barefoot for $330 or Lecrete for $350 if I want softwood. I do have the Greene Team option for $270 at Lowes, but I think I'd rather spend the extra $ and support the local guys who want to earn the business from now on. Thanks everyone.

 

[alternativeheat]

I've burned every rotten pellet going in my P61, including some with water damage but that re-dried, though crumbling they burned fine. I've never had any sort of wet creosote. I've gotten darker ash from a low burn, but as mentioned, Room Temp Auto isn't really a low burn generally. Are you sure you aren't in Room Temp Manual ? That could go into a low burn for hours, even just a maintenance burn. But at that, the ESP should be demanding a hot enough exhaust to not form creosote. I have gotten some dime sized black glaze on the burn pot now and then from some pellets, it dries hard and a good hot burn just burns it off ( easier than chipping it off). Maybe it's your pellets but I'd be pretty surprised at that.

I've burned Energex hardwood too, they are ashy is all.

Good luck with your pellet test tonight and let us know how it turns out !

 

[jertola]

No I ran on stove temp auto. Tonight I'll be running prestologs through it. I also have some clean energy I can try as well. I know the clean energy burns about 50 degrees hotter than the chows. I didn't know to check for the creosote at the time tho. We shall see.

 

[NYBurner]

Jertola - Green team is a pretty good pellet. Barefoot is the best 'all around' I've tried so far but I dont know that its worth the extra money you mentioned. I get Barefoot for 290/ton locally.

Softwood burns good, but you have to burn them HOT and lean or you will get black tar'ish' build up. Plus they tend to have a LOT of fines/dust so you'd be well advised to run them through a pellet cleaner before burning.

 

[bogieb]

I've burned every rotten pellet going in my P61, including some with water damage but that re-dried, though crumbling they burned fine. I've never had any sort of wet creosote. I've gotten darker ash from a low burn, but as mentioned, Room Temp Auto isn't really a low burn generally. Are you sure you aren't in Room Temp Manual ? That could go into a low burn for hours, even just a maintenance burn. But at that, the ESP should be demanding a hot enough exhaust to not form creosote. I have gotten some dime sized black glaze on the burn pot now and then from some pellets, it dries hard and a good hot burn just burns it off ( easier than chipping it off). Maybe it's your pellets but I'd be pretty surprised at that.

I've burned Energex hardwood too, they are ashy is all.

Good luck with your pellet test tonight and let us know how it turns out !

I burn crap pellets in my P61a and have never had a creosote problem - regardless of whether I burn in room temp/auto, room temp/manual, or using stove temp. What I am currently burning only throws luke-warm air into the room - and that is at a high burn (I saved these pellets for shoulder season because of that).

IMO there is something wrong, but blaming the pellets is akin to just saying "it's all in your head" when you go to a doctor and they can't figure out the problem. Some stoves are susceptible to having issues with bad pellets - but Harman's aren't. You may get better results with better pellets - but I wouldn't count on that lasting as it will just be masking the symptom. Naturally, that is just my opinion and I could be full of it too

 

[Deezl Smoke]

I tend to agree with bogieb. I run my Castles on low continuously. In fact, the highest temp they've ever ran was the initial burn in when new. Since then, they are on the lowest setting and have no build ups of any kind.

More than once, we've had threads of various kinds about black soot and creosote leaks etc. But in many cases it appears to be the installation and exhaust plumbing that contribute to the issues.

So if you can describe, or best yet, post a picture or two of the exhaust plumbing, it would help. Since you did not perform the spring cleaning, it could be that the set time with normal build ups has collected condensation moisture and ran down the plumbing. I'd first give your friend a couple bags and see how it goes before I'd give away that many pellets that may not be the issue.

 

[jertola]

I'll post pics of th plumbing later. It was professionally installed with oak. Had no problems for the first 3 years so I doubt it's the plumbing. If it builds up with other pellets then I have an appointment on 11/10 to have them come look at it. I have had no problems with chow in the past. This time I bought them at the end of the season on clearence and there was water under the weather covers. Dried off the bags and the pellets weren't swollen so I kept them. Gaskets are the only other thhing I can think of.

 

[TStark]

In my observations, any time the stove is flameless and just embers, there is a little smoke present. and when smoke is present, it will condense on the cooler surfaces, over time creating creosote and a hazard. This presents itself first in time of low fuelling, minimal heat requested.

Any state-of tune you can do make certain that with every feed cycle a flame is always present, typically eliminates these condensates.

 

[bags]

You can also alway mix some known good pellets up with the junky ones. I would not be overly concerned about some small ugly ash and such unless it continues and you are not getting a good and complete burn. I run low and slow often during shoulder seasons and have not have issues per se. But when I do a 50 / 50 corn and pellet mix I'll see some sticky gunky stuff which is no concern to me either.

Your issue you are seeing could be from many things including moisture, junky pellets, etc; If your stove ran fine on other pellets and everything is operational then it very well could be the Stove Chow pellets which are not looked too highly upon from what I've read.

 

[Bioburner]

As bags has found with the corn, corn has a fair amount of water, storable corn has up to 14% or so moisture. Your pellets may be a bit damp. Water boils at 210 and that can cool things off enough to create a problem. Wood pellets try and be around 7% or less

 

[jertola]

I finally got the fan off. Carb cleaner worked. I'll post pics of the stove after removing a lot of it and pics of the plumbing as requested before. It hasn't been cold enough to run the stove hot long enough to test much. I did run a couple of bags of clean energy pellets through it on stove temp a few days ago with no issues so far. They were actually burning about 50 degrees hotter than the Chows. Oh and I didn't mean to come across as being a major critic of their pellets. I'm pretty sure I just got a bad batch that Home Depot had sitting outside for months. One more reason I'm going to pay more and try the local guy for a season.

 

[Bioburner]

Good for you getting that fan blade off. I would get some anti seize on the shaft and the set screw. You could still salvage the pellets.

 

[alternativeheat]

If that's the case that the chows both run cooler and create some creosote, I'd mix them in with some hot pellets . Maybe a ratio of 2/3 hot pellets and 1/3 chow and mix them around by hand. Do that till you get rid of them. It also could be just the low burn with cool pellets combined and once you can have sustained longer hot burns this issue will go away..

That creosote sounds like a case where a good hot burn won't produce that. The tough creosote issues don't come off with carb cleaner in my experience ( years ago burning wood), you chipped and scraped or had a chimney fire LOL !

Incidentally,I had turned down my exhaust blower a couple of years ago for some fast burning white pines. I trimmed it back enough to get nice tips on the flame instead of blow torch effect. I had a clean burn either way but a tamer flame turned down a little. But now I'm burning FSU and I was getting dark ash and an almost black soot on the bricks and the glass getting brown ash on it. I bumped my blower trim screw back to the factory setting and the FSU are fine now. I checked my line voltage at my surge protector strip with the stove running and I have 120 volts there. That is where the factory setting is set from , 120 volts but I don't think they have 23 ft of 4" rise going on like I do. I guess what I'm saying is your stove might need a bit more air with these chows. Perhaps, is all.

 

[alternativeheat]

I finally got the fan off. Carb cleaner worked. I'll post pics of the stove after removing a lot of it and pics of the plumbing as requested before. It hasn't been cold enough to run the stove hot long enough to test much. I did run a couple of bags of clean energy pellets through it on stove temp a few days ago with no issues so far. They were actually burning about 50 degrees hotter than the Chows. Oh and I didn't mean to come across as being a major critic of their pellets. I'm pretty sure I just got a bad batch that Home Depot had sitting outside for months. One more reason I'm going to pay more and try the local guy for a season.

In image 0050 and not to burst your bubble, but I think Harman specs an outlet temination to be 7 ft above a walk way. I could be wrong about that without looking it up but I think so. Not that that has anything to do with your creosote issue.

 

[Deezl Smoke]

I finally got the fan off. Carb cleaner worked. I'll post pics of the stove after removing a lot of it and pics of the plumbing as requested before. It hasn't been cold enough to run the stove hot long enough to test much. I did run a couple of bags of clean energy pellets through it on stove temp a few days ago with no issues so far. They were actually burning about 50 degrees hotter than the Chows. Oh and I didn't mean to come across as being a major critic of their pellets. I'm pretty sure I just got a bad batch that Home Depot had sitting outside for months. One more reason I'm going to pay more and try the local guy for a season.

Yep, that's about as simple of plumbing as you can get. Almost same as mine.

 

[jertola]

Got rid of the pellets already. Wasn't a complete loss. I know an electrician that loves them and I want to upgrade to a 200 amp service. In return for the pellets, I'm getting free labor on the upgrade. That may have actually worked out in my favor.

 

[bags]

At first I saw your outside vent thinking why not straight out but then realized you needed clearance up off of the deck. As Bio said anti-seize everything you can. My fan is stuck on my PC45 but it is fine. When the motor goes I'll have to cut it off. I have blasted it and it has been soaking and I may try to get it off before I start it this year but if not I'll just go on about my business.

I went ahead and anti-seized everything on the P68 and when I do my good cleans I take the fan blade off and redo it all with anti-seize. Works like a charm plus I get a better clean too.

 

[alternativeheat]

I've never had my P61 fan off, going into our fourth season with this stove. I clean in there monthly during the season and never have seen enough junk to consider removing the fan. It's hardly worth brushing out , never mind removing it. this stove has really good draft though, I think the junk moves past the fan well and I find it in the horizontal pathway or in the clean out T and it's just powder at that.. I have an air compressor, I could just give the blades a light blowing off actually but I use a nylon paint brush.