drolet adirondack not doing the job

[medolarque]

What a great forum! I hope you are all toasty warm. I am NOT, and I need some serious help.

I am not new to wood burning; I have burned wood for more than 20 years in pre-existing (to me) stoves and chimneys with never a problem, until I installed a Drolet Adirondack stove in my apx. 1500-sq/ft A-frame three years ago. I have had the chimney reworked three times, the last by the most reputable firm in 100 miles. It draws beautifully, never backdrafts, warms quickly. I have two problems. One with everything closed off but the main room I can't heat above about 60 in extreme cold with the assistance of two elec. space heaters (it's 8 out now, 56 inside with a hot fire) and, worse, it needs a cleanout every one to three months, depending on how much I burn. I have heard everything from Drolet rules to Drolet **** (doesn't rule, fill in the blank). It is an EPA non-cat with baffles, and the creosote flakes down the pipe onto the top of the stove above the baffles, obviously choking it off. I just cleaned it a few weeks ago and I can hear the "rain stick" effect of creosote tinkling down the pipe as I write this. I got a large drafty cabin that was all window walls up to 56 in similar weather with nothing but a Heatolater fireplace! I burn bone-dry hardwood only, no paper, etc. I never let it smolder, never "bank" at night, get up every few hours to redo another decently hot fire. The glass is clean as a whistle. I wouldn't care about the cleanout, except the chimney is supposed to "telescope" to let me do this -- ha, that part has been reworked twice and it still takes me two hours to work it 1/4" off the collar. The house is insulated and weatherized, but not overly so. I didn't even need a fire the entire month of December (down to 30s). I'm afraid I'm going to have to let it go cold and clean it in the next couple of days. I have also been told the new EPAs are nothing but headaches. What gives? Any ideas? Thank you!

 

[begreen]

Welcome. What is the stove top temperature when the stove is going well? What is the stack temperature? How tall a flue on the stove? Is it an interior or exterior stack? Is there a draft damper on the stack?

FWIW, a good new EPA stove works fine. There are a lot out there that folks are happy with. Read the reviews.

From the sounds of it, you may have too small a stove, though we've seen several cases of overdrafting this winter, thus the questions about temperature. A frames can be hard to heat if all the heat is collecting at the peak. How are the loft temperatures? Do you have ceiling fans installed?

 

[medolarque]

Hi BeGreen, thanks for the nice welcome. Fast, too!

Thermometer 12" above stove reads up to 500, nearly always 300 or better except new startup. How do you gauge difference between stove/stack temp? 8 to 10' interior single-wall pipe inside, 12-15' double outside (standard for roof clearance), exiting lowest point of roof.

Yes, I've heard most people are thrilled with their EPAs. Drolet owners in Canada claim they haven't run a brush in years. Hard to believe. What could be causing the creosote trickle-down? I do know my super-dry burning makes dry, flaky, not tarry creosote. Is it not "sticking?" I've been told a "little" buildup is a good thing. Maybe I'm not even getting that little bit. Last year I actually burned fine all winter, then a bird got into the chimney in the spring, fluttered around and dislodged all the creosote. It was all piled on top of the stove, and the inside chimney was shiny clean. This year, one cleanout already and another looming.

I'm thinking too small a stove, too. It's rated for up to 1700 sq/ft, and this is much less. I do know A-frames are bears to heat, but we only have trouble in very low temps. What is overdrafting (?)

I'm going to measure loft/celing temp right now. I know it's warmer up there and can be up to 25 degrees higher than down. Ceiling fan is always on, planning to get the big paddles to increase efficiency. Also a large fan directly in front of stove, which makes a big difference. I do not fan from behind, as this lowers chimney temp precipititously.

Does this give you any ideas?

 

[begreen]

It sounds like in general you are doing a good job burning and creosote is not a big issue. You do have heat stratification at the top of the A frame, this is pretty typical. Do you have the ceiling fan blowing up or down? You can have is blowing up (reversed) at a higher speed without feeling a draft. The stack installation is not ideal. Generally one wants the maximum amount of the stack inside and the minimum outside if possible. But it sounds like it's working well now.

A draft damper may help out and it's an inexpensive change. If the flue is drawing too hard it will actually pull a lot of the heat out of the stove and up the stack. The stove will also be harder to regulate. Generally with a damper one can achieve much cooler flue temps, while maintaining good stove temps. For example, the stovetop running at 550 or 600 where the stack will be 400. If the stack is as hot or hotter then the stovetop, try a damper. It will decrease wood consumption and increase heat output. Often the stove will burn alot better too. You'll notice this with better secondary combustion. Search for threads containing "overdraft" for more info and experiences. In some cases the results are quite dramatic.

 

[medolarque]

Ceiling fan blowing up or down is a good question. I have wondered about that, and ours doesn't seem to have the reversal options. We can feel the air blowing downward, though, so I think it's "down."

I wanted a through-the-apex pipe, but nobody would do it. I also realized how impossible it would be to do any do-it-yourself emergency work on that type of pipe. Two places turned us down cold to do ANY A-frame chimney. I suppose they knew the results would not in any case be optimal.

We tried a draft damper early on and the only appreciable difference was the falling creosote clogged that area first. I've used them before, and I don't get it, either.

BTW, buying an A-frame was not my plan. The seller offered a to-die-for deal...now I think I know why. It has so many charms, but so many challenges.

I am still scratching my head raw trying to figure out why we have this creosote clogging problem and what to do about it.

 

[begreen]

There is very likely a small black slider switch on the side of the fan that is the reversal switch. In the winter it's a good idea to run the fan in reverse.

Odd, I have a friend that has an A-frame with a central stove pipe. I will admit I must be a booger to install but the roofers had to get up there too. At least it can be cleaned from inside. Is the majority of the creosote forming on the outside section of the pipe?

Is there a possibility of extending the loft all the way so that the 1st floor has a lower ceiling? Seems that would solve a lot of the heating problem. Another idea, that wouldn't be all that pretty, but you could tack up some plastic sheeting with battens to use as a temporary winter measure to contain more heat on the first floor. Enough will leak upwards to keep the upstairs warm.

 

[Gooserider]

Nearly all ceiling fans have a switch on the side of the motor that reverses direction. Of course in an A-frame, reaching the ceiling fan may verge on the impossible... We have a very high ceiling in our living room, it's not quite an A-frame, but it's still 23' from the floor to the fan box. A couple years ago, we had to replace the fan that came with the house, and I had to rent an 18' scaffolding tower to get up there and change it. We found that the only brand of fan that was remotely reversible was Casablanca on certain models. Casablanca is expensive, but they have a very nice switchbox setup that allows you to reverse the fan from the ground, plus a lifetime guarantee on the motor, with NO requirement for periodic lubrication. I'd say it was worth it for this application, though I'd say they were overpriced for use in normally reachable applications.

Are you sure the bird (or the bird removal) didn't do some sort of damage to the stove? It seems this might be the case since you say that it burned fine last winter, and has only given you problems since the bird got into the chimney.

I'd reccomend getting two thermometers - one should be on the flue, preferably a probe type, and the other should be on the stove top or whereever other owners of your stove say is the best place to measure from.

Another question is whether or not you are observing a good secondary burn on the stove. Lack of secondary would suggest a problem with your burn tubes, or some other induction problem.

Gooserider

 

[elkimmeg]

If the stove did the job last year It should be up to the task this year. The first thing I would check would be the termination cap. They tend to plugged their screens.
This reduces stove preformance. Next ,I would clean and examine your stove. I would look for gasket leaks. I would shop vac it completely out getting as much fly ash out as possible.
I would pay special attention to the air passages and clean any baffelets and area. But I willing to bet, ITs your cap is restricting exhaust. That would explain the raining of cresote fakes
If it does not exit smoothly and freely, it will spend more time in the chimney cool down and create soot cresote formations..

I would examine all connector pipe joints to see if they leak and the connector pipe to the flue collar connection. Even dry wood produces cresote, if allowed to cool in that chimney

 

[medolarque]

Thanks for the thoughtful answers. I think I just lost a long reply, so this will be a little shorter.

Found the fan switch. May be able to reach with a loong stick. It's doing a good job as is though.

Spark arrester removed two years ago. Cap totally clear and open.

Very little creosote inside top and bottom. Doesn't take much to fall and clog stove. Thoroughly cleaned out and vacuumed what can be reached of baffles, etc. a month ago. Pipe seems quite tight, no leaks.

Have also entertained idea of extending loft, as well as nutty ideas like retractable canvas ceiling (the stove itself presents a problem there).

I've seen A's with apex pipes, as well as central chimneys. Wish I knew why no one wanted to work on mine.

It was 15 below here last night, 46 inside.

Thanks, everyone.

 

[medolarque]

P.S.

Last year it did not clog until the bird got into it, but it also did not heat the house above low 60s at or below 20 above outdoor temp.

 

[begreen]

It sounds like the main issue is the falling flakes. Now I understand why you are POed that the telescoping section isn't working well for you. That is odd, ours works pretty well.

Ideally it sounds like a larger, rear-exit stove connected to a cleanout tee would solve the problem of flakes accumulating in the exit of the stove, but that's expensive. I'd still consider the T on top of the stove so that you can periodically snake a vacuum hose in to clean the exit of the Drolet.

 

[medolarque]

I'm totally with you on all counts. I wanted the T when we redid the chimney, but once again I got talked out of what I wanted. It would still be difficult on this stove, because you have to get into a narrow shelf all over the top of it beyond the "collar"...it's tough enough to do that with direct access.

I have been seriously thinking about a bigger stove with a rear connection. I don't know anyone who has ever had these problems before, and I haven't either. My friends and neighbors think I'm nuts. On the other hand most of them claim they have "never" cleaned their chimneys, so I don't know which is worse.

One chimney sweep company sent two guys to my house last year, who looked the stove over and left. "You can't clean those." When I buy a new stove, I am going to be looking for the simplest design with the fewest gimmicks and the easiest chimney cleaning.

With all the modifications that have been made since the invention of the Franklin stove, why hasn't cleanout access been more of a priority? And why do I get this flaking problem? Is my chimney flaking more than normal? Is it the stove design that makes it a problem?

One thing's for sure. I have gotten a major education in stoves, installation, venting, weatherizing, inside air turnover, chimney construction and cleaning, wood selection, handling and burning, etc., etc. in the past three years.

 

[begreen]

If the Dolet is burning cleanly with good dry hardwood then the only thing I can guess it extreme cooling in the outside section of the stack.

 

[elkimmeg]

Spark arrester removed two years ago. Cap totally clear and open.

Some have to clean them 3 times a heating season or more

 

[medolarque]

I'm wondering that, too, if the expansion/contraction cycle is causing the flaking. It is much worse at startup.

Clean chimney caps? or chimneys three times a year?

 

[begreen]

Is the exterior pipe all Class A?

 

[medolarque]

My guess would be yes. It was quite expensive (not that that means anything), and the installers were the best. Last time we were talked into Dura-Loc triple insulated, and it was a disaster (what a surprise). The guys who put this in were super-knowledgeable and not at all put off by an A-frame, although they did decline to go through the apex. They did a tall stack with sturdy supports and fixed the roof around it (it leaked terribly after the previous install).

I'm embarassed to say that your post made me think for the first time that I should call them and ask (!) In my defense, though, I don't think they would have taken me seriously without this many problems and so much excellent advice first.

 

[medolarque]

I don't know what happened to my earlier answer to this. I "assume" so, it was quite expensive, and replaced the Dura-Loc triple wall we were disastrously talked into the year before. Again, the inside is single-wall and I think the outside is double.