Englander - The Next Experiment...

[leeave96]

I read a recent post regarding burning a secondary stove with a stove pipe damper closed and did a little search/reading of older posts and the idea of using a pipe damper on my Englander 30-NCH is my next experiment on my learnng curve jouney.

What I am thinking is the stove pipe damper will hold more heat in the stove vs. letting it go unrestricted up the chimney. I think it will trap more smoke in the firebox too. With higher firebox temps and more smoke, I ought to get more secondaries and a cleaner burn.

When I got home tonight, the stove was already half way through a burn, so when I closed the damper I got a few more secondaries, but the stove was heading into the charcoal stage so I wasn't expecting much this time around.

Over the weekend, I'll give this stove pipe damper a workout and see how it goes.

Bill

 

[pen]

When you close the primary air down the sucking action of the chimney then can't get it's air from the airwash primary anymore so the draw ends up pulling air through the other air intakes in the stove (secondary, doghouse, etc)

If you reduce the draft it is going to reduce the pull that those things will experience as well.

I have one installed but have only used it a handfull of times in the last few years. Each time was because of an overdraft situation where it was extremely cold or the wind was catching my chimney just right and pulling things out of control.

pen

 

[leeave96]

When you close the primary air down the sucking action of the chimney then can't get it's air from the airwash primary anymore so the draw ends up pulling air through the other air intakes in the stove (secondary, doghouse, etc)

If you reduce the draft it is going to reduce the pull that those things will experience as well.

I have one installed but have only used it a handfull of times in the last few years. Each time was because of an overdraft situation where it was extremely cold or the wind was catching my chimney just right and pulling things out of control.

pen

I don't disagree with anything you are saying and I appreciated you insite/advice. I put the damper in the chimney pipe to potentially help with an out of control fire.

I've given-up on this experiment for now as I think the stove ought to perform without the stove damper or any other gimmicks for that matter.

What I am seeing on this Englander, with normal set-up use, is in order to get a smoke free output, I have to burn it such that I have a 500 degree stove top. Anything below this and I get smoke and diminished secondaries. To acheive/maintain the 500 degree stove top, I have to open the damper and let the splits flame pretty good to keep things going. As the fire moves toward charcoal stage, but not there yet, I have to continually open the damper a bit to keep the stove to 500 degrees. There's no set it and forget it until the stove burns to ashes like I can with m cat stove. This makes for burning a lot more wood than I had expected with this stove to get a clean burn. When I look at vids of secondary burn stoves in general and the Englander 30 more specifically, I see a lot of what appear to be red hot coals, but the only real flames in the firebox seem to be the secondaries going. I've got about 24 ft of chimney from the thimble, 6 inch insulated class A pipe inside a chase. I wonder sometimes if my draft might not be as strong as other folks, but with that set-up it ought be. For a point of reference, I'm burning my Woodstock Keystone on a 16 ft chimney with the same wood and it is performing like a champ - works as advertised. I think I've got a clean burning stove in the Englander and I especially like the ability to quickly crank out the heat when I need it, but so far my experience leaves me somewhat dissapointed compared to my cat stove.

For now, I'll just run the stove to keep the smoke at bay, assume I am going to consume more wood than I expected and at some point down the road, based on the current experience with this stove, I'll replace it with another cat stove - very likely a Woodstock.

Bill

 

[BrowningBAR]

I read a recent post regarding burning a secondary stove with a stove pipe damper closed and did a little search/reading of older posts and the idea of using a pipe damper on my Englander 30-NCH is my next experiment on my learnng curve jouney.

What I am thinking is the stove pipe damper will hold more heat in the stove vs. letting it go unrestricted up the chimney. I think it will trap more smoke in the firebox too. With higher firebox temps and more smoke, I ought to get more secondaries and a cleaner burn.

When I got home tonight, the stove was already half way through a burn, so when I closed the damper I got a few more secondaries, but the stove was heading into the charcoal stage so I wasn't expecting much this time around.

Over the weekend, I'll give this stove pipe damper a workout and see how it goes.

Bill

"I read a recent post regarding burning a secondary stove with a stove pipe damper closed"

Was that the Heritage thread?

 

[leeave96]

Was that the Heritage thread?

It was and from there I did a search on old posts too as that gave me the idea. It looks like the damper isn't going to work on my set-up. Just to be on the informed side of my firewood situation, I randomly picked pices of oak, locust and pine, split them and checked the moisture content and I'm getting 10-15% consistantly so it ain't my wood.

I really like the Englander, it is a heating beast and the price I paid for it makes my wallet very happy. But I think I'm spoiled by my cat stove's no smoke burn and hands free operation to ashes once cat is engaged, but in order to get this Englander to fully do the same, I'm going to just have to burn it harder than I'd like and that's means more firewood consumed than I anticapated. Maybe when the temps really take a dive into the twenty's overnight and low 40's during the day, the stove performance will improve.

Compared to my Dad's old smoke dragon Englander, I'm sure this stove, even with a bit of smoke, is much more clean. The thing that really bugs me is I live in a residential neighborhood and it's a good thing to have no smoke out the chimney. Some distance away, I can see another house with an addition that had to be built in the 70's and they have a cinderblock type chimney and that guy has a what I think is a smoke dragon hooked to it. It ain't a pretty sight seeing that smoke billowing out and it rubs my fur the wrong way when I see smoke (albeit much less) flowing out my chimney like his - inspite my high tech EPA stove - LOL. The Keystone, engage the cat - zero smoke, steam - whatever it is.

Thanks!
Bill

 

[Danno77]

Was wondering about beefing up the baffles over the secondary tubes. I'm not there yet, but have you thought aout seeing if that does anything positive?

 

[DexterDay]

I added a damper. Only in case of emergency. But the more I have been burning. The more tempted I am to mess with it. I have 4 ft vert, 3 ft hor (to cleanout-T), then 18 ft of Triple wall Class A and it seems to draft like a champ. If I leave my primary air out even with the ash lip (like a few run there stoves) It would get Hairy really quick. My thought on that, is, mayne those that are running at that setting, have the doghouse blocked. If I remember correctly, didnt you block the doghouse? It seems the doghouse is the reason I cant keep the stove under 600*. It lets in a tremendous amount of air and acts like a blowtorch on the front of the splits. I wait till the stovetop gets down to 250*-300* and rake the coals. I normally have enough coals to go about 8-10 inches back from the front, across the width of the box, and 2-3 inches deep. With the back of the stove almost empty. Takes only a few minutes and its engulfed with flames. Set it back to the ash lip for a minute or two (slows it a little), then in 2 more steps till its about 3/4" out from full closed.

I will try and post my latest video on Youtube tonight. The secondary action was Crazy. Super slow rolling flames. Would go from almost non existent to full firebox of wisping flames. Lasted for about an hr. Me and the Wife sat with the lights out on Fri night.. Loved it.

Still learning everyday and wondering more and more about plugging (plate over) the doghouse or utilizing the damper to slow things down a little.

 

[DexterDay]

Here is a pic of the Blowtorch. Can see the bright red patch. Without it, I think the stove would run longer and at a cooler temp. Just seems like that eats a lot of the wood up. I know these stoves are designed like this and Englander spent X amount of R & D and X amount of dollars to make sure it did its job. But the harder it drafts with the Primary in its final resting place, the more air comes through that hole a Super Heats that spot. I like to tinker with things. But only after I have given it time to take it through its paces.

Also pictured is a Clevelands finest from Great Lakes Brewing Co. Christmas Ale. Only made for 4-6 weeks a year. Great stuff. High Octane stuff too.. Dont know if it makes it up your way. Most of it is kept local. But I read last year that more and more is being shipped out. Dont know how much. $12.99 a 6 pack. Little pricey. But its a holiday tradition now. Have to get enough to last to New Years...

Cheers....

 

[GAMMA RAY]

Dexter, I hear you about the "blow torch" thing....I am thinking about blocking off the doghouse...
I hate this learning curve thing.... :-S
I am type A.....that does not go well with wood burning.....

 

[BrotherBart]

Guys just realize that if you block off the doghouse air that you will have to provide sufficient primary air to maintain a burn. You won't be able to close primary air all the way down.

 

[DexterDay]

Guys just realize that if you block off the doghouse air that you will have to provide sufficient primary air to maintain a burn. You won't be able to close primary air all the way down.

Fully understood BB. I have some heavy duty magnets about the size of a quarter. Thinking about putting them on one night and blocking either one full hole, or both of them half way (not sure if it would have the same effect/same surface area, but may flow differently) then the next day a little more, until they are fully closed. Maybe there is a happy-medium somewhere.

The way I understand, some users have already done so and had good results. Would not block the secondary combustion port. Although by blocking the doghouse, in return, it may pull more air through the secondaries???

I am not complaining by no means. I get great heat, killer secondaries, and after loading the stove at 3:30 a.m. before I left for work yesterday. I had enough coals at 4:00 p.m. to start the next load without anything other than a piece of Pine bark (3" x 7"). So even with the soft woods I have been burning, it aint to bad.

Lots of learning left. Years to learn the pellet stove and how to operate it the most efficient way. Now a woodstove and a pellet furnace to tinker and test with this Winter.

May not do anything for awhile. Just like to try things that others have tried and see what the results are.

I do believe the superheated spot from the doghouse it what makes the secondaries so pretty. I may be wrong. But just seems like that helps keep the temps super high for the bottom center of the box. Does eliminating the doghouse effect the overall secondary burn? Because more Primary is needed, it seems it may take away from it? No?

Bill, sorry about the hi-jack...

 

[sebring]

Figures... I buy a new woodstove,,, and its the one people are always experimenting with trying to make it burn better.. :lol:

 

[DexterDay]

Figures... I buy a new woodstove,,, and its the one people are always experimenting with trying to make it burn better.. :lol:

No Fear. Its plenty good the way it is... Period.

I am just a perfectionist/tinkerer.... Just run! it as advertised. Its a Beast??!!

 

[pen]

I think the problem here is you want the stove to run too cool. If you want a clean burn under 500 degrees while the wood is outgassing, you'll need a cat stove.


pen

 

[leeave96]

Was wondering about beefing up the baffles over the secondary tubes. I'm not there yet, but have you thought aout seeing if that does anything positive?

There's definately a gap across the width of the stove with the baffle. I think some have closed that gap.

Bill

 

[BrowningBAR]

I'm interested in knowing how the stove works for you when the temps stay consistently low.

 

[leeave96]

If I remember correctly, didnt you block the doghouse?

I closed it, but then reopened because I wasn't comfortable everyone in the house operating the stove understood that with the doghouse closed, you got a smoke dragon if you damper the stove fully closed.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[BrowningBAR]

If I remember correctly, didnt you block the doghouse?

I closed it, but then reopened because I wasn't comfortable everyone in the house operating the stove understood that with the doghouse closed, you got a smoke dragon if you damper the stove fully closed.

Thanks,
Bill

It's a shame you are leaning towards swapping out the stove with another model and I already convinced my self an Englander isn't what I need. Otherwise I'd make a trip down there in the offseason.

 

[leeave96]

I'm interested in knowing how the stove works for you when the temps stay consistently low.

The stove definately ain't going anywhere soon. It will be the heating monster in my house through this winter and probably the next few too. When I look at my chimney set-up and wood, everything seems like it ought to be and I know the Englander is a great stove. My gut tells me I got a bit of a draft problem, even though I never get any back puffing on reloads or start-up. When I get some time, I am going to start noising around for air leaks.

In the mean time - I'll keep burning it as it.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[Todd]

I think the only way to tame the beast is to burn small loads, it just doesn't seem like this stove is capable of a low BTU output with a large load. It will probably work out great for you in the colder weather when you really need it.

 

[rdust]

I think the only way to tame the beast is to burn small loads, it just doesn't seem like this stove is capable of a low BTU output with a large load. It will probably work out great for you in the colder weather when you really need it.

x2, even when I had my Endeavor I couldn't get a low output with a full load. No matter how I loaded/controlled the air I would end up with a 600-700 stove top and drop from there. This time of year I made small hot fires and that's the way I figured most if not all non-cat stoves were. Biggest reason I switched to a cat stove was for the low heat output in the shoulder season.

 

[BrotherBart]

The other way to tame it is to burn E/W in it like it was designed. I have been doing that for the last week and it gives you less lumps in your throat and a prettier and more consistent burn.

 

[GAMMA RAY]

The other way to tame it is to burn E/W in it like it was designed. I have been doing that for the last week and it gives you less lumps in your throat and a prettier and more consistent burn.

That's my next experiment.....e/w....I got used to loading n/s in my 13 because it performed better that way...
60 's here this week....40 at night.....I hate shoulder season...

 

[leeave96]

Well, the next round of my learning curve with this stove is this:

1. Burn the @#! thing at whatever it takes to maintain 500 plus stove top temps.

2. Burn E/W to try to extend burn times vs. N/S

3. Keep everything factory set-up, i.e. dog house air supply open.

4. Keep flue pipe damper open.

5. Hope for the best!

Bill

 

[pen]

Sounds like a plan.

Good luck w/ the E-W thing. When I've tried I haven't had much luck and ended up babysitting the darn thing. I've been loading 3 to 4 med splits N to S in the middle of the stove (w/ doghouse air in tact) in the morning for the last several days and coming home to enough coals (w/ a little blowing through an old arrow shaft) to light wood w/out kinding 14 hours later. I just can't imagine needing much more than that or gaining a whole lot more than that doing E-W since each time I've tried E-W I needed to leave the air open more than normal to get a clean burn.

pen