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Enviro pellet stove 2455RM Honeywell L200 High Limit Switch pops cranking up stove?

Post in 'The Pellet Mill - Pellet and Multifuel Stoves' started by Don2222, Jan 25, 2013.

  1. Don2222

    Don2222 Minister of Fire

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    Hello

    Does anyone else have one of these snap discs pop in this cold weather when cranking up their stove?

    This 2455RM Honeywell L200 Hi Limit switch is in an Enviro Empress Insert and is very annoying!
    When the switch trips the stove fills up with smoke from the instant shutdown and smoke gets into the house! Then the stove will not start and the heat level 2 light blinks on and off!

    It seems like a cheap surface mount switch. Should we just hit the red reset button and grin and bear it?


    Maybe the Selco 250 High Limit switch would be better?

    See the culprit in the inocent pic below
    Click to Enlarge

    Attached Files:

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  2. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

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    Don, Careful! Check the actual temp before the mod. I would think a higher CFM blower would be a better place to look. Its over heating because not enough air is passing thru it when cranked up IMHO.

    Less risky of a mod too!
  3. Don2222

    Don2222 Minister of Fire

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  4. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

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    Maybe one of the Whitfields. I'm guessing the stock blower isn't even 150 CFM. You might want a 200 CFM.
  5. SmokeyTheBear

    SmokeyTheBear Minister of Fire

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    Is the convection blower clogged by crud?

    Has it been oiled in the last six months if oil-able?

    I vote with jtakeman in the don't change that hi-limit without discussing it with Enviro.

    How does that popping result in smoke back? Something not sounding right here.
  6. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

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    Like the Breckwells they dump power to everything. All blower just cut out.

    Clean/lube the blower like bear said. If it still cuts out. Reset and place a floor fan behind the unit. 9 times outa ten it will fun without tripping. Fuel for adding a larger blower.
  7. SmokeyTheBear

    SmokeyTheBear Minister of Fire

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    I can see a mod in the area of what gets cut off on a over-limit.

    Also what is the natural draft situation at the owners place Don?
  8. Don2222

    Don2222 Minister of Fire

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    1. Yes, oiled and cleaned

    2. When the snap disc popped it shut down the stove, it smoked.

    I would not go over 250 Deg F because other stoves like yours has that.
  9. Don2222

    Don2222 Minister of Fire

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    What is the Hi Limit cutoff in Degrees on your Enviro Omega?
  10. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

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    Don't go there don, Its a total different beast. Its 200 degrees for a reason on the little pretty stove. Improve air flow and it won't hit that limit!

    Edit: Or better yet, Replace that small pretty stove with something with more power. I got a feeling its too small for what they are trying to heat! More power scotty!
  11. Don2222

    Don2222 Minister of Fire

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    Well Jay, I know there is a difference between your stove and this. However in the case of the US Stove 5660 that has a 200 Deg F Hi Limit that is always popping is the same btu and shell as the HR Saranac which has the 250 Deg F Hi Limit. So not all stoves have the right parts in them. If a stove's Hi Limit keeps popping on high heat levels then a small adjustment should be made.

    BTW. I am a Whitfield parts dealer now and the old Whitfield manual 2 speed convection blowers would not work here because they do not change speed with the heat level by the control panel like the newer Enviro stoves do.

    My HR West Point has a 250 Deg F Hi Limit and a big convection blower and still keeps popping the Hi Limit above heat level 3. So I am also considering a small adjustment there. The next step is a 320 Deg F Hi Limit.
  12. SmokeyTheBear

    SmokeyTheBear Minister of Fire

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    Call Enviro Don.

    Maybe they can provide information on why the stove is getting so hot.

    You know things like a partially blocked exhaust system causing hot exhaust to remain in the stove too long or the stove in a too confined an area to allow the convection air intake temperatures to be low enough to remove the proper amounts of heat from the stove.

    Partially blocked convection air system (kid's Match Box cars and Crayola crayons in the works).

    Don't be a Carl.
  13. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

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    If the blower fits wire it for high speed and bug the low speed wires. Adding more air flow is a safer bet than disrupting something that was UL listed. Once you add the higher limit switch UL listing is null and void. You will be liable if there is an event that would make the front page of the local paper.
  14. steamguy

    steamguy Member

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    I'm bookmarking this one to see what happens with it. Former engineer here, I've had this problem since Day One with my Empress. Anything 1-4 on the panel, we're OK. Go to 5 (top) and within about 15 minutes, high limit trips.

    Airflow: OK; pulled convection fan and cleaned and probed the duct with a snake and "cat tail" brush
    Intakes and outlets: OK, no blockages or excessive dust.
    Fans: Oiled often and spins OK (on its 3rd convection fan, first 2 replaced under warranty)
    Chimney: 30 feet straight up, great standing draft, clean.
    Combustion side: Cleaned regularly. At least once per ton.
    Dealer: "Set the draft full open". DONE. Still does it.
    Fuel: Tried different kinds, no effect other than being able to extend the time before it quits from 15 minutes to 25 minutes.

    Keep in mind that our County has tight regulations regarding Fire codes. Mods to stoves will get your insurance cancelled.
  15. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

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    If you go look at a Breckwell manual you will see they don't recommend that you run them for more than an hour at feed rate 5 setting. IMHO Enviro should have either limited the control to 4 heat settings or Done the same as breckwell. Offer the 5th setting but warn you it will over heat.

    I changed a fan on a breckwell(from 135CFM to 200 CFM) and you could run it on the 5th setting for weeks on end. What ever you do, Do not change the high limit. Add a larger fan and get the unit some additional cooling.

    Like I said proof is with a floor fan sitting behind the unit. Turn it to medium setting and let the stove rip. Wanna bet it runs for more than 25 minutes?
  16. SmokeyTheBear

    SmokeyTheBear Minister of Fire

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    steamguy,

    Your stove might run fine on 5 if you just open a side up, some times the the air temp inside the stoves shell trips the thermal on the convection blower which in turns shuts down and then the stove goes over limit. This can happen fast enough that unless you were looking for it you wouldn't even notice the sequence.

    This can happen if the shell doesn't allow enough "cool" air inside regardless of the cleanliness of the convection blower.
  17. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

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    Bear, That's worth a try. But I have seen the little empress over heat with the fan doing its thing. Its definetily air flow. Taking the sides off will help cool it, But with out adding more air flow with a fan she'll still overheat the high limit. If the high limit doesn't trip the combustion blower will thermal out first. Either puts em in shutdown.

    I put some time in an Empress a few seasons ago. Seems I misplace one note book that had the info in it. I got to go digital. If I remember correctly, I found a fan(might be the one I toild don about) that fixed this and it would run for hours on end. I wouldn't leave home with it on 5, But it was enough to keep it running for a couple of hours to warm things. Then they would turn it back to 4

    Again, This issues is because the stove is too small for the application. Best fix it to go bigger and be warm literally(sorry kind a blunt-but it is what it is)!
  18. SmokeyTheBear

    SmokeyTheBear Minister of Fire

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    jtakeman,

    I agree that the stove is too small for the task it has been given in most cases, however it should be able to run on all settings without issue unless it has been properly disclosed. Then the way the sizing issue shows up as a steady decline in temperature once the outside temperature and wind load reaches a certain level.

    To get air through the stoves convection system it must first enter the stoves shell if it is restricted by that it is exactly the same as having crud in the works.

    This fact is also the reason why certain installation clearances are as they are.
  19. steamguy

    steamguy Member

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    I really appreciate the input, and you guys all have valid points.

    Boy, I wish I could open a side up or put a fan behind it to blast away. But... it's hard to do that with a fireplace insert. Initially I had called for a stove alcove for a freestander when we built the house. But we have a fireplace... In support of your points, this last time I pulled the stove to replace a fan (combustion, this time) I noticed the wires had the beginnings of heat damage. I insulated them with 400° tape and re-routed them to keep them more out of harm's way than the original factory routing.

    We had an Austroflamm before that was a terrific stove. On full blast it would literally run you out. And we heeded the advice of the Austroflamm dealer - we never ran it FULL HIGH for more than 10-15 minutes at a time; not even that time when the power had been off and the house was 39° inside when we finally got power back. Actually one trick I learned was to set it FULL HIGH and start a time for 5 minutes. The stove wouldn't be overheated, but you could turn it down to a safe level but meanwhile it would be circulating air at its full speed for about 20 minutes more.

    We literally loved that Integra to death; it was falling apart inside and out when we replaced it. We often ran it just above the minimum, and we were always satisfied with the heat output. Even the coldest, windiest days (remember where I live) took only midrange or a shade higher. Never typically more than 1:00 on the dial which went between 7:00 and 4:00.

    We got the Empress because we just couldn't find another new Integra. Anywhere. The Empress was quoted with 80% less output of the Integra, or roughly 10,000 BTU, so we all thought we'd be just fine. We hardly EVER used FULL HIGH on the Integra, so we all figured, hey, we should be good.

    What torches my pellets is:
    1.) I think the BTU output of the stove was seriously overquoted. If this unit was putting out 80% of the Integra, we'd be warm. AND in the last few years, I've put in a bunch of attic insulation, plus underfloor insulation, PLUS new windows - all of this SINCE installing this stove. So the house SHOULD require less heat.
    2.) I think that this stove is less efficient overall. It seems that I'm using more fuel for less heat output. I'm cleaning this thing far more than I ever had to clean the Integra; which to me says that there's more material going through it.
    3.) Because of this problem, we can't ever run the stove on FULL HIGH for a while to get things warming up and then turn it down. And absolutely I agree with you: we'd never EVER leave the stove alone when turned way up, or even to #3. If we leave the house or leave it on when going to bed, the stove gets turned all the way down.

    When I waste my money willfully, I have few regrets. When I've been duped into wasting my money, I get hot. Except for now, when I'm cold...

    The budget has already been adjusted to set-aside money for a new stove... Anybody have opinions as to which is the quietest? That's the item that will sell it to my wife...
  20. SmokeyTheBear

    SmokeyTheBear Minister of Fire

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    How is your stove vented in the fireplace?

    The reason I'm asking is that under some conditions you may have quite a heat build up due to back pressure in the vent system.

    This is usually a problem if the flue has large cross section, and I know that some installers don't do a full liner.

    Also it is possible that this may be related to your heating issue as well..
  21. jtakeman

    jtakeman Minister of Fire

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    Sorry to here this, I have been there too. I was duped by a dealer and a Breckwell that didn't have what was advertised. Reason I joined here was to get some advice on it and then the replacement. I am surprised they didn't at least try to sell you the Meridian which would have been a better fit as its about the same BTU gross.

    IMHO the Meridian would do fine. Maybe you can get a Enviro dealer to take the Empress in trade on one? Or look for a Harman, The Accentra will do fine. Or you could see if the is a Rika dealer near you they make the Integra now. The Integra is the quietest of these. Quadrafire Mt Vernon is very quite but might be a tick big for you(but you will never be cold). It also cleans itself. Another plus with the MT V is it can run on battery backup. Enviro M55 cast is very quite too. You could always add a stat to the big stove(MT V comes with one).

    IMHO, you want to stay with a stove that has 25 to 30% more than you need. The bigger stoves are better at keeping the area warm with a stat attached and can either idle down low or shutdown until you need them again. More power here helps over come cold spells easier and the oops of missed hopper fills-Power outages. Anytime you need a warm up quick is where the big stoves shine. I kind a stuck on having more stove than needed. You'll be warmer and you will never need to work them too hard.

    SmokeyTheBear may be able to help you run the Empress a bit hotter. But IMHO they don't like the full load burns and Every one I have touched is run it on 5 for 15 minutes and turn it down to 3 or 4 for cooling it. Then repeat turning it up to 5 until you get the area warm. I have only played with free standing units. Not sure you can do much with the insert. You might be able to remove the surround and add a large computer fan behind it, But IDK how that would go. You might be able to keep it cooler as bear said, But intead of the side. Remove the surround to see if that helps. I'll bear go from here.

    Keep us posted!
  22. stovelark

    stovelark Minister of Fire

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    You guys opening a can here. Have had to reset hi temp switches many times after a couple of times, either change it out, see if customer running it on hight (5) then cutting it back so built up heat will shut it down, dirty or failing convection fan, or just very hot pellets on 4 and even 3 (Hamer's hot ones have done it). I would not modify anything from the mfr. Enviro does warn you about running on high heat settings on a sustained basis. You don't drive your car at 150MPH everyday, makes sense in the pellet stove world too. If the cust has to do that, then they need a M55. Yes, I know dealers sometime undersize, I also know sometimes customers buy whats liked, versus what is suggested they need. Most folks are reasonable if explained to them. I would stay away from modifying, I really hate to find stoves that someone has "improved". The switches that have failed, having actually popped early, stoves were typically 3-5 seasons old. Good luck to us all.

    Stovelark
    Enviro EF3 FS pellet
    Enviro Empress FPI AC pellet
    Enviro Kodiak 1700 FS wood
  23. SmokeyTheBear

    SmokeyTheBear Minister of Fire

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    Ok now that I know that Enviro (FPI) ixnays the long term use of #5 I'd suggest that Enviro remove the option all together and further that if a particular pellet can do it at #3 I'd suggest that Enviro get a clue and increase the air flow through the convection side of the stove, or provide a proper means of adjusting the fuel feed better yet perhaps both, that is to say, do it right or not at all.

    Oh the use of an M55 in this instance is like throwing something on the fire, ISTR two, yes that is right two modifications simply because they were also going high limit land, lets see that's right an adjustable feed via a revised auger flight cover and approximately twice the convection blower air flow.

    Cans who is opening cans, at least I think Don got the answer he was not looking for.
  24. stovelark

    stovelark Minister of Fire

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    Smoke- Don't really get what you are talking about above- I'm just saying, it is NOT a good idea to modify or advise someone to modify a stove (or any appliance) without the MFR's concurrence. If saying that is a bad thing, I'll be bad, and safe. If the MFR takes a serviceguy's/dealer's input in and makes a change ala the M55, thats them doing it, not us..

    Stovelark
  25. SmokeyTheBear

    SmokeyTheBear Minister of Fire

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    Yes and you'll note I didn't suggest doing any modification and for Don to call Enviro (FPI).

    Now someone needs to prod the manufacturer.

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