Fence Building

[lukem]

Last fall's garden fence project has turned into a spring project. Funny how that works.

I'm building a 48x56 fenced area. Job 1 is to keep the garbage-gut dog out. His appetite knows no bounds. Job 2 is to keep deer to a minimum. I know I can't totally beat them.

I bought treated posts 6x6x8 for corners and gate, 4x4x8 for runners. I'm going to bury the posts about 24" and put some welded wire 4 ft and then a couple courses of smooth galv above that.

Although I've built miles of cattle fence in my day, I've always used a post driver. I'm ashamed to admit that I've never dug/drilled a hole and buried a post. Some say dump a bag of dry concrete in...other say tamp with dirt...other say pea gravel.

Not sure who to believe. Any advice?

 

[WhitePine]

I put six inches of gravel in the bottom of the hole. Set the post in, then add a couple more inches of gravel around the post before backfilling with dirt.

Whatever you do, don't entomb the bottom of the post in concrete. That's a sure way to set up rot. The post hole needs to drain. That the reason for the gravel on the bottom.

 

[semipro]

I put six inches of gravel in the bottom of the hole. Set the post in, then add a couple more inches of gravel around the post before backfilling with dirt.

Whatever you do, don't entomb the bottom of the post in concrete. That's a sure way to set up rot. The post hole needs to drain. That the reason for the gravel on the bottom.

+1 on draining the bottom of hole so the post doesn't rot. If you do use concrete I'd suggest leaving the concrete a little high and sloping it outwards away from the post to keep them as dry as possible. Line trimmers will tear a wooden post up so finishing the concrete a few inches above the ground allows you trim against it instead of the wood.

 

[SolarAndWood]

Not sure how big of a problem the deer are there, but I've seen them go over my 8 ft fence without much effort. Sore subject in this house...

 

[jimbom]

Treated (for ground contact) posts should go years without rot. We have 20 years on treated pine lumber and plywood basement window wells with no problems. Around here, frost heave does more damage than rot. Frost will jack a shallow post out of the ground in short order in our wet freeze thaw climate. The biggest challenge for our barb wire fences was to keep the corners in the ground. My dad used metal line posts with twist spacers at mid span. We had to dig the railroad tie corners in at least three foot to try to miss most of the frost heave. Lot of rock in the Ozarks. Us boys used to wonder how it was a rock would frost heave. But we kept that to ourselves and kept the breaker bars ringing. He cleared the fence line using crawler tractors with bulldozers. But we hand drove every line post and hand dug every corner post in the fence. I didn't understand at the time, but it was not about building fence. It was about building boys. After we got growed and gone, he bought an auger and a post driver for the three point hitch and a riding lawn mower for the yard.

I don't know your soil or climate, but two feet is not very deep in my area. I guess it also depends on how long you need it to last. If you are going 24", consider driving them. It will compact the surrounding soil and make it stronger and less permeable. Might keep the the moisture away from your post. I don't know if you can buy driving shoes for 4 by 4 posts or not. If not, the chop saw does a nice job.

I went to Alabama and helped my older son build a fence last spring. Even there, I went down 30" and placed concrete around the posts. I am sure he thought it was overkill, but his soil is a disturbed red clay-loam. Easy digging, but not the best for long term fence stability.

 

[begreen]

Get 10 ft posts if you are trying to keep out the deer. Leave 7.5' above ground and fence to the top.

 

[Exmasonite]

Couple thoughts:

- Didn't do the math on how many posts you're doing but if it's more than 5-6, i'd strongly consider the $60-80 to rent the post hole digger. Will save you a ton of time and shoulder pain.

- Posts will look nice but i just did 70 linear feet with the green steel stakes, TSC has 10' for < $10 each. Did a pen for the dogs attached to the garage. Used simple post pounder and a 10 lb maul. Used two overlapping runs of the 4' heavy wire fencing, wrapped a foot along the ground as a "skirt" to discourage digging. Worked very well, probably cost < $250 for the whole project, maybe another $50 for a gate with some scrap lumber, hinges, and latch. I am planning on doing the same thing for our garden.

- +1 on the gravel in base of hole to keep moisture away from base. I'm always a fan of putting a bag of quikcrete in holes with posts... call me lazy but find it works very well. Will usually put a "slant" at the top of the concrete so water flows away from post.

 

[lukem]

Deer aren't a major problem...I was able to discourage them last year with a couple courses of rope. They figured it out toward the end of the season. I went with 8' posts over 10 with hopes *hopes* that I won't have to go that high. We are going to grow climbing stuff (cucumbers, peas, gourds, etc) on the fence so hopefully the lack of visibility will slow them down some more. If I have to I figure I can extend the posts by scabbing onto them with some 2x4s however high I need and string some wire around it.

Our soil drains really well and has 0 rocks in it. The lack of rocks is amazing. I haven't seen anything bigger than pea sized.

 

[lukem]

Couple thoughts:

- Didn't do the math on how many posts you're doing but if it's more than 5-6, i'd strongly consider the $60-80 to rent the post hole digger. Will save you a ton of time and shoulder pain.

-

26 posts. I have access to a one-man auger with 6" and 10" bit. I'm def not doing this by hand.

 

[billb3]

I try to keep contact with moisture in the ground to a minimum.
Most important is the post sitting on several inches of drainage material like pea gravel/crushed stone.

I've used concrete on all the posts and concrete on just the corner posts.

Having had to move a fence that was all concreted in I prefer the concrete just on corners and fast draining stone surrounding the posts on straight runs.

 

[WhitePine]

Treated (for ground contact) posts should go years without rot. We have 20 years on treated pine lumber and plywood basement window wells with no problems.

The operative word is should.

Homeowners can no longer buy lumber treated with the same preservatives that are in your 20 year old wood. Even contractors can't buy it, if it is for residential use. What's available today is a lesser product that has no track record.

 

[jimbom]

Treated (for ground contact) posts should go years without rot. We have 20 years on treated pine lumber and plywood basement window wells with no problems.

The operative word is should.

Homeowners can no longer buy lumber treated with the same preservatives that are in your 20 year old wood. Even contractors can't buy it, if it is for residential use. What's available today is a lesser product that has no track record.

That is too bad. We have had great luck with our treated pine.

 

[WhitePine]

That is too bad. We have had great luck with our treated pine.

Yes, and it was done without any real evidence that the old CCA treatments were harmful. The new stuff requires special fasteners because it is corrosive to steel. No bets on how many joints are out there ready to fail because the wrong fasteners were used.

If you want a long read on wood preservatives, Wikipedia has an extensive write-up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation

 

[10range]

For deer, I have read numerous places where people have taken fishing line and run that around gardens. The idea is that the deer can not see it so when they touch it they get confused and don't try to get back in. I have not tried this personally but am planning to this year since my garden will be in a new location. Anyone tried or have success with this method?

 

[firefighterjake]

No fishing line, but I do put up a fence consisting of fine mesh . . . the mesh is designed to be 6-8 feet in height but for the past five years or so I've simply left it at about 3 1/2-4 feet in height and it seems to keep the deer at bay . . . even though they could easily jump the fence and get in the garden . . . I suspect as 10range mentioned they cannot see the fine mesh and get startled when they brush up against it.

 

[lukem]

I tried the fishing line and mesh. Can't say for sure if it worked because the dog trashed it.

Deer get pretty immune to stuff like this after a while. Once they bump it and realize they aren't dead a couple times they'll plow right thru anything.

 

[SolarAndWood]

Deer get pretty immune to stuff like this after a while. Once they bump it and realize they aren't dead a couple times they'll plow right thru anything.

That's my experience. Started with the mesh, added 4' of vinyl coated wire fence, added another course of 4' vinyl coated wire fence, reinforced the whole thing with galvanized smooth wire. They still ram it although they can't knock it down anymore with the smooth wire reinforcing it. However, the strong ones just go right over it like its not there.

 

[esuitt]

I read some place (maybe here) that if you add a hedge row to your fence line the deer will not jump it since they cannot see behind the hedge row. Just something I read, take it for what it is worth.
I running deer can jump 10-12 ft. I have seen deer standing jump 8ft over a fence.

 

[SIERRADMAX]

Nail a piece of 3-1/2" expansion joint (for concrete walks) around all 4 sides of the 4x4 PT post. Then cut flush with the top of the concrete.

When and If the post rots, you'll have extra room to install another.

 

[[email protected]]

Unless you are planning using alot, there is no real advantage for using concrete. Strength in concrete come from mass. and unless you plan on digging below the frost line, concrete will only make "heaving" more likely. The advice from above to use well draining gravel is best. If you were really concerned with the stability of your soil you could drop in a 1/2 bag or so of cement mix ( with out water ), over time will stabalize the ground directly around the post.

 

[Mcbride]

try and get some old railway ties, and use those.
They will last 100 years in the ground.
Here CN rail was trying to get rid of old ones.
they just gave me as many as i wanted.
I hauled about 700 ties away for the cost of fuel and wear and tear on my truck and trailer.

 

[lukem]

It stopped raining for 24 hours for the first time in what seems like two months so I took Friday off and got started on this project. Rented the machine in the picture to drill the holes. The ground was really wet and my expectations were pretty low, but it did a good job. 12" holes for the 6x6 gate and corner posts and 8" holes for the 4x4 line posts. Drilled holes about 30" deep, put down 2 inches of pea gravel in the bottom and set the post. I skipped the concrete and just tamped them in. They are in there solid. 18 posts drilled and set in about 6 hours. Still need to brace the corners though.

Went to TSC and bought some vinyl coated welded wire 36" tall for the bottom (dog protection) and some smooth galvanized for 5 runs on top of that (some deer protection). Should have it finished by the weekend. I'll post up some pics of the finished product.

Now I just need to design/build the gate. I left the opening a touch over 8 feet so I can get the truck and mower in if needed.

Final size was 48'x56'.