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For an insert, do you really need a liner in an existing masonary chimney without cracks?

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by Mr. Jones, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. Mr. Jones

    Mr. Jones New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2012
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    Loc:
    Kennewick, Washington
    I'm sure this has been posted on here somewhere. Just curious since I've read some posts that people have put in "I believe there are three different kinds of tubing". They also insulate it somehow. What is the point in insulating around your tube inside the masonry brick chimney?

    They also put a cap on the flues top. Does this greatly benefit those with cats? If I already have plenty of draft. Does it make your stove more efficient or is it unnecessary if you have plenty of draft already? I'd hate to have to blow another 500 or whatever it costs for more labor and materials on an already expensive stove.

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  2. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Nov 18, 2005
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    Loc:
    South Puget Sound, WA
    Describe the current chimney in detail including height, clay tile liner size and whether this is an interior or exterior chimney.

    Connecting a good stove to a poor flue system will provide an unsatisfactory experience. The flue must be safe. A wood stove is going to have the potential to send higher temp flue gases up the chimney with a lot less air volume cooling it off. If the masonry chimney is touching wood at any point it must be lined even if there is an intact clay liner already in the chimney. Also, the only way to really know if all the tiles in the chimney are in great shape and securely mortared to each other is to drop an inspection camera down the chimney. Has this been done?

    Also, the flue must be sized correctly to match the stove requirements. You can stub up above the damper into a properly sized flue, but that makes for a big pain when cleaning. And you must install a damper-sealing blockoff plate under the damper. If the flue tiles in the chimney are too large then it won't draw well when connected to the stove, especially if it's short. Running a full stainless liner will improve draft and it will make the chimney much easier to clean.
  3. Mr. Jones

    Mr. Jones New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2012
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    26
    Loc:
    Kennewick, Washington
    I don't know anything about a clay liner. The house is from the early to mid 50's. The fireplace brick goes from wall to wall upstairs living room and downstairs around 15 feet wide. All I know is we've been using an old bk since the early 80s and has plenty, if not too much draft. It's downstairs, so the chimney is around 22 feet tall. Never really worried about a chimney fire, since we have went 8-10 years without cleaning and a around 3 chords a year. lol. I'm thinking the wasted wood of super hot fires burned it off, or kept it from getting too dirty. Just got it cleaned last year, and didn't use it much. I need to seal around it better, since once it gets going, you cant really stop it or slow it down enough, and lumber scraps burn too hot and fast. I've been scared before, when I couldn't slow it down and the top and metal door were glowing red. Thought it may melt, lol. I just turned the jet air on high, and it would burn up the wood within an hour or so. Maybe I need to seal around it better with sealant.

    It's an exterior fireplace. Glass screen firebox old school up stairs for small fires to look at, and downstairs is the insert=for actual heat. I don't have control over the chimney damper with the insert in it, as it's located inside. "no handle coming out of the brick". Even when the air entrance on the stove is closed, I can still see gaps of light from the fire on the sides. Inlet is like 2 inches by 4 or 5 inches wide. It just goes through too much wood, with the lack of being able to control it well, and is time to part, even with all the sentimental value to me.
  4. Woody Stover

    Woody Stover Minister of Fire

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    I think the cap might improve draft as well, or prevent downdrafts, but the top plate and cap seal your chimney so that rain doesn't run down inside your masonry chimney where it can freeze and thaw, damaging the clay liner or brick. You also don't want water inside your stove. :oops: My cap has a mesh screen that would keep large pieces of burning creosote contained in case of a chimney fire. The stainless parts aren't cheap. Do it right, once, and you're done. I went with the best liner and hardware I could get...got a little under $1000 up there, including liner, tee, top plate, clamp, cap and insulation. I now have peace of mind and a great-performing system. You might be able to do it with a cheaper, thinner liner for $500+ if you install it yourself, like I did. You might be able to forego the insulation if you have an interior chimney, but it would be better to insulate too...
  5. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Loc:
    South Puget Sound, WA
    So, about 22 ft of chimney for the new stove, correct? It should draft well then. The chimney probably will need to be re-cleaned. A full liner is required on an exterior chimney.
  6. Kevin Dolan

    Kevin Dolan Burning Hunk

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
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    163
    Loc:
    SW Ontario
    Be green, I have a clay lined exterior double brick chimney that the installer put a stainless liner into when I got my new stove installed. I am wondering if I should pour some perlite insulation down from the top of the chimney to help insulate. Do you think this is a good idea to help keep the liner cleaner? Sorry if I posted this in the wrong place. I have done a quick search of the site for this but could not get an answer.
    Thanks
  7. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    If it were my chimney, yes, I would insulate if nothing else to reduce creosote accumulation. But tell us more about the chimney. How tall is it? How has it been working for you so far?
  8. Kevin Dolan

    Kevin Dolan Burning Hunk

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    Loc:
    SW Ontario
    My chimney is outside/attached to the house and is around 20ft high. It draws well and have no prob with puffing or backing issues. My main concern is creosote buildup as I sometimes hear some falling down the chimney on startup from cold. Not a lot but enough that i will clean the chimney shortly, I am just getting used to burning the stove and was not burning hot enough so have remedied that by starting with stovetop 500 600f before closing air down in increments.
  9. clemsonfor

    clemsonfor Minister of Fire

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    Loc:
    Greenwood county, SC
    If someone is running in an open clay liner, i dont se a problem running an uninsulated liner down the same chimney regardless of where it is on the home. If there cleaning it running dry wood and getting it up to temp they will have no more creosote problem than what they were doing before. Not optimal but in my UNEXPERT opinion is not worse than how they are now.
  10. thechimneysweep

    thechimneysweep Minister of Fire

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    789
    Loc:
    Bellingham, WA
    Years ago, the manufacturer of the stainless liner we were using at the time sent out a warning about loose-pour insulation (vermiculite, zonolite, perlite). They claimed the loose pour created tiny "hot spots" where the individual pellets actually came in contact with the liner, each surrounded by a cooler "doughnut" created by the airspace between the pellets. This, they claimed, caused some of the components of the stainless to flee the hot spots and migrate into the cooler perimeters (a process they called "nickling"), which weakened the liner. They further announced that use of loose-pour insulation would void their 25-year liner warranty. Their recommendation was a tight-sealing top plate to create dead-air insulation. For situations where solid insulation was required, they recommended wet-pour (slurry) or blanket insulation.

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