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Got my new toy and now dissapointed!

Post in 'The Gear' started by iceman, Sep 8, 2009.

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  1. kgreer

    kgreer New Member

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    Again, there are two schools of thought as to which way is better. We've been using supply side filtration for the last 30 or so years and there are no problems doing it either way if engineered correctly.. The reason for the change had nothing to do with functionality, but more to do with accesibility of the oil filter. On our older units if you wanted to change your filter only and not the oil, you would have to drain the oil to do so. I will reiterate that there are two schools of thought and Goose has received information from one school of thought and some of his points are valid. Again, it all has to do with how you design/engineer the machine and whether it is built correctly. We have also changed to a horizontal shaft motor with a sidemount pump. In this alternate design, both pump and filter are higher up and more protected from anything the splitter might run over while towing. I hope this clears things up?

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  2. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    The counter argument that I have heard made on the "filter before the components" concept is that the oil in a splitter, or almost any hydraulic device does an endless loop, thus it all gets filtered at some point, no matter WHERE the filter is... Thus no matter where you put the filter, there is really only one point in time where "unfiltered" oil goes through the pump, valve and cylinder, and that is the first time you start the machine with newly added oil... The folks that make and package hydraulic fluid have some fairly stringent standards as to what it's supposed to be filtered to when packaged, so as long as you are using clean transfer equipment, and refrain from pouring sand into the tank along with the oil, the only real source for contamination is the tank itself - one would hope that no matter what sort of filtration is being used, the manufacturer cleans out the tanks after assembly... (Though I do seem to recall some reports of people finding newspaper in a tank a while back....) Since in most units the suction line is at least a little way off the bottom, most large heavy contaminants are going to sink below the intake level as well.

    On my return side filter system there is a bypass valve as well, but as long as the filter is changed as needed, it should only need to bypass on the ram return stroke, if it bypasses at all. The filter head is rated for 25gpm, my pump does 16gpm, so it should only bypass if the volume multiplier effect of the return side of the cylinder having a smaller volume than the extend side that it's pushing back causes more than 25gpm to go to the tank on the return stroke - I'm not sure as I haven't tried to do the math on it.

    If one really wants to be fanatical about making sure all oil gets filtered, but still use return side filtration, I've even seen it suggested that one should put a tee in the return line and add fluid by pumping it into the return line and thus ensure that the added fluid goes through the filter on the way to the tank... IMHO this isn't a bad idea, but it's a bit overkill, and isn't really practical for the home user since it requires pressurized dispensing equipment. (OTOH, if you are working on a several hundred K$ machine with high tolerance requirements...)

    Speecotech and I obviously don't agree on this, but I don't think avoiding the potential for problems from having unfiltered oil make one pass through the system justifies the added strain on the pump and risk of cavitation caused by suction side filtration. I also like the fact that it's easier to do a filter change on a return side system without draining the oil.

    I'm glad to note that it sounds like Speeco is changing to return side filtration, as well as going to a horizontal shaft engine / pump configuration, IMHO that is a significant improvement.

    Gooserider
  3. m0jumb0

    m0jumb0 New Member

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    Yeah, the vertical shaft engine is really my only quibble with my 22 ton unit. I couldn't justify the added cost of the 28 ton tnough since 22 tons is enough to split anything pretty much, and the 28 has a bit longer of a cycle time. My workflow depends on me bringing wood to the splitter rather than dragging it through the woods though, so it's not too much of a worry. Though an aftermarket skid plate would be nice just in case :)
  4. brad068

    brad068 Feeling the Heat

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    Guys I got to put in my two cents.

    I have worked on a number of hyd systems and a return is a safer bet. On the systems I did, There is a suction strainer that is inside the tank usually 100 mesh so the pump did receive some filtering, weld beeds, slag, etc. As far as amount going through the filter, I think the amount will be the same whether under power or not. You can't compress fluid only pump it at a little slower volume due to decreased rpms under load. What doesn't go to the cyl under max load goes through the relief and everything goes back to the tank. When the cyl. is pushing one way the fluid on the other side of the piston(double acting) exits through the valve and back to the tank. And actually on wood splitters with two stage pumps, the most fluid is when the valve is in the neutral position and when the cylinder is cycling not under load. Under load the second stage is activated decreasing the volume by 3/4. EX. 16 gpm becomes 4 gpm under load set by the unloader valve. I want to say 650psi? I think.

    As far as changing the filter on the return or suction, all you need is a vacuum cleaner. Stick the suction hose in/on the fill port while you remove the filter. Works great for me.
  5. bsa0021

    bsa0021 Feeling the Heat

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    I'm with Gooserider on this. If I'm spending 1K on a splitter I want the "safer design". Maybe that's why these older design units are on sale at TSC now. Big question is when can you purchase the new design?
  6. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    Almost right G, except that you forget about the fact that the two sides of a splitter type D/A cylinder have different volumes because one side has the piston rod sticking out of it, and the other side doesn't. Thus the side that extends the piston has a volume equal to the piston area times the stroke length, while the retract side has a volume equal to (the piston area MINUS the Rod area) times the stroke length... If you divide the total volume by the stroke length you can come up with a number on each side for how much volume it takes for an inch of piston travel, or how much volume of fluid an inch of piston travel will move...

    How does this affect the flow in the return line? - Lets make a fantasy splitter that has specs designed to make the math easy, rather than to reflect any actual machines....

    Assume we have a pump that always puts out 6gpm (we have easy splitting wood, so it never shifts into the second stage, which I've usually seen described as happenning around 800psi) our magic splitter also has a cylinder that has a piston rod that takes exactly half the area of the piston, so the retract side is 1/2 the volume of the extend side, and which takes 1 quart of fluid per inch of travel when extending, and has a 24" stroke

    There are three possible states for the valve - extend, neutral, retract.

    In neutral, the fluid goes straight through the valve so you have 6gpm coming out of the pump and returning to the tank.

    In extend, you have 6gpm going into the extend side of the cylinder, or 1 quart every 2.5 seconds. Each quart pushes the piston out 1". This movement of the piston forces the fluid out of the retract side and back to the tank, but since the retract side has only half the volume, 1" of travel only pushes out 1 PINT of fluid, so as the pump is pushing 6gpm into the extend side, the retract side is only sending 3gpm back to the tank....

    In retract, the situation reverses - 1 quart of fluid still comes out of the pump every 2.5 seconds, but it pushes the piston back 2" because the retract side has a smaller volume - but 2" of travel pushes 2 quarts out of the extend side back to the tank - or 12gpm, which is twice the rated pump volume....

    It is a bit of a challenge to wrap ones head around, but that's the way hydraulic systems work... One can calculate a ratio between the volumes of the different sides of a cylinder, and the volume of fluid returning to the tank will be that much less than the pump rating on the extend stroke, and that much greater on the retract stroke.

    Gooserider
  7. brad068

    brad068 Feeling the Heat

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    I'll be damned, I never thought of that but it makes perfect sense. Thanks Goose!
  8. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    No problem at all... I find that often trying to explain stuff to others helps me understand it better...

    Gooserider
  9. kgreer

    kgreer New Member

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    The new design has been in production since last fall. If a particular TSC store has a unit on sale it is because either they are having a sale or it is older stock they need to sell to make room for new splitters. There is nothing unsafe about either design. They have been in production for many years.
  10. iceman

    iceman Minister of Fire

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    I am def scratching my head... as usual i am learning more and more each day...... but i am starting to feel like i got an "old car with a new engine" that would explain why the log splitter was the same price as a 22ton with a vertical engine.... basically this was leftover material from when the design was changed, the put on a new "clone" engine and they can puch these out at a lower price and a consumer like me thought he got a great deal/steal on a Speeco log splitter... oh well smart business/advertising ...
    Thank god for this site
    Not saying the design works or doesnt work but i think its obvious huskee/speeco started going in a new design direction and this must've been getting rid of the old frame/tank design..-
    ahhhhhh back to the drawing table
  11. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    Note that I haven't heard anything to say that the "China clone" engines are significantly worse than the other name brand engines - and any shortcomings in quality can be made up for by the lower cost. Aside from the filter location, which is a cadaverous horse that is already well beaten, I haven't seen or heard anything specific that would make me think you had a "bad" splitter - hopefully they can figure out the vibration you are getting and fix whatever is causing it, and If so, seems like a good unit to me.

    Gooserider
  12. iceman

    iceman Minister of Fire

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    thanks goose i wasnt trying to be mean about it, i just think i figured out "how" and "why" it was 999 coming with speeco name on it next to a huskee 22 ton...
    seeing the name speeco made me think "it must be a mistake!" for a 25TON that appeared to almost be identical to the 28 (except color, size of the beam and honda engine) with a 4.5 inch cylinder, same size resivoir etc
    but then finding out more info here.... well ya know i see the writing in between the lines now... i appreciate it and i am very glad to have people chime in because i have a better idea of what to look for now!

    on another note it seems that timberwolf doesnt even have a filter?!?!
  13. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    Don't know about the TW splitters, never really looked that closely at them, but I can certainly say that if I bought a splitter and it didn't come with a filter, that lack would be remedied immediately, with a return side filter - note that this is a pretty low cost item, and it is an easy install, so there is no reason I know of not to put one on.

    Gooserider
  14. glacialhills

    glacialhills Member

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    There is one more thing the new Husky design filter location improves on over the old design besides the change in filter location and ease of filter change. The old design has the hose coming directly off a barb on the top of the tank and the new design comes off the side of the tank with some pipe fittings before the new filter location. With the hose off the top of the tank it is right in line for splits falling off the back(you can hold the front split) and crushing the hose and barb. So the new design solved three weaknesses of the old design...
    1. Ease of changing filter without draining tank...
    2. Better filter location for less valve/pump wear and less cavitation...
    3. Side of tank hose coupling takes away a lot of risk of a big split smashing the hose or coupling.

    Just wish and ask that Speeco would supply a log catcher to those of us with the old, perfectly acceptable design so as to mitigate 1 of the 3 design flaws. Maybe as a goodwill gesture to those of us that have supported their great company.At the very least design one to retrofit the 22ton husky, As I was told there is no factory or after market log catcher that fits the husky 22ton to protect the bad hose location without user modification/welding it directly on to the I beam.
  15. iceman

    iceman Minister of Fire

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    well went by tsc and today is demo day... the manager was out using a 28 ton.. he sees me and calls me over to show me the demo... he says "is your engine as quiet as this?" my answer "no" so then we check the vibrating ... this machine has little to none.. when the ram extended it was quiet... now he was using it in the vertical position... so he says to me that the 22s are good for the money but the 28 and 34 are just hands down better machines.... so i go home and ask the wife"is this one a lot louder than the other one?" she says yes... i stand mine up in vertical... in my yard figuring that would eat the vibrations... negative!... my wife says "the other one ran so much smoother than this one!"

    ***** i looked at the return line and there the filter was.... but i found it strange that the return line and suction line were only about 6 inches apart AND at the same height??? which was near the top of the tank .. maybe an inch from the top... arent most suction lines more towards the bottom of the tank? like 2 or 3 inches from the bottom????

    AND one other thing...., to all those who may have thought speeco was "made in the usa people" there is a big sticker on the 28 and 34 ton that say "Assembled in the USA" WHICH leads me to think that not all parts are made in the USA..... looks like everything is some how coming from abroad...
  16. rdust

    rdust Minister of Fire

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    Sorry to see you're not happy with the splitter, they have offered to exchange it or upgrade you, right?

    Unfortunately consumers want cheap and this is what companies have to do to give it to us.
  17. iceman

    iceman Minister of Fire

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    yes they did offer exchange upgrade...?????
    and yes consumers want cheap ... don't you?... somewhere in this thread or forum it was brought up that speeco was made in the usa (another reason to buy from them)
    I am just pointing out that I think some of the parts come from abroad....
    and many companies don't go abraod because we want cheap( although some do) they go abroad so THEY can go cheap and make more money!
  18. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    We live in a global economy - stuff comes from all over the world, and IMHO worrying about it makes no more sense than a person in Maine not wanting to buy oranges because they are imported from Florida...

    Years back when Kawasaki built their first motorcycle assembly plant in the US, one of the bike magazines did the experiment of taking apart one of the brand new "Made in the USA" police model Kawasakis, and a police model Harley-Davidson, and sorting the parts by country of origin... Guess what - there were MORE "made in USA" parts on the Kawasaki...

    There is in economics the entire concept of "comparative advantage" which underlies the idea of specialization, and that even if two parties can both do the same things, they will both make out better if each does the thing he does best and trade their surpluses rather than trying to do it themselves... Going back to my first sentence, yes, if one worked at it hard enough, you could grow oranges in Maine and potatoes in Florida, but it works best if each state does what it does best and trades...

    Note that when a product gets made overseas, the ONLY jobs that get moved are the ones in the factory that makes the product - The rest of the chain stays basically the same - the product gets distributed, sold in stores, and people still buy stuff to service and maintain it.

    The money that goes overseas to buy those products may get swapped around a bit over there, but it can only really be redeemed by coming back and buying something FROM US - outside the US, other than as a promise that it can be traded to the US for something, our money is nothing more than rather ugly green wastepaper... (won't get into what Obama is turning it into inside the US....)

    When the American consumer looks for cheap, the money he saves doesn't just vanish either - instead it is used to purchase yet more goods and services of other sorts, which is likely to create more jobs in other industries...

    The reason we are hurting so badly right now is largely that we have given away our comparative advantage as manufacturers of goods to others that can do the same thing at an acceptable level of quality for less money, but have not found enough good alternatives that place us at a comparitive advantage in other fields...

    Sorry for the ashcan grade rant, but I really wish more folks would do some economics 101 level studying...

    Gooserider
  19. kevin j

    kevin j Minister of Fire

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    goose
    I agree with your description, except.....

    -It is not just the assembly jobs that go offshore. Each manufacturing job (or most other jobs also) also feeds a chain of related activity: other people make or sell the conveyors, floor mops, tool & dies, pop machines, boxes, pencils, accounting or timekeeping. The workers income supports restaurants, little league games, local grocery stores, etc. etc. Not one for one of course, but the chain effects many additional jobs.


    -The money eventually should cycle back to the issuing country, if not for excessive debt. If the balance of payments was 0, Florida would buy the same amount of potatoes + firewood +.... from Maine as Maine bought oranges + Disneyworld + .... from Florida. Both economies become more efficient and both have higher standards of living. So the ideal is NOT protectionism to have a closed protected economy going in a circle, but a balanced one going in all directions equally. (I am not even going to touch the theory of increasing debt vs. growth in GDP. Trying to keep it simple here.)

    The breakdown comes when the balance of payments has a large deficit. If Maine buys oranges and goes to Disneyworld, but sells only a few potatoes in return, eventually there is either loss of resources, no more savings account, or debt accumulates that has to be covered somehow by paying forever into the future.

    As an example, envision an isolated family household: One person kills and grows the food, another cooks it, someone mows the lawn, someone weaves and makes the clothing, someone else does the dishes. If they 'paid ' each other to do these jobs (with a finite number of dollars, sea shells, bottle caps or acorns), the cycle can still continue forever. (If one promises to pay another in the future with sea shells yet to be earned, inflation can start unless productivity also increases by that debt, but that is another topic. Assume it is a fixed amount of sea shells.)As you have described, it could be more efficient if someone got a job in town (outside the circle of the local economy) and sold the excess garden stuff and bought clothes made in a specialized factory. As long as the sales equal the purchases, life is better for both economies.

    The unsustainable part comes when the family goes to town to buy clothes, and buy food, but never sells anything, (or at least buys more than sells). Life style and standard grows, life is way better, but in the background the charge accounts at the grocer and shoe store grow bigger and bigger. At some point, the trading partner says no more credit, no more charging, no more groceries until you either pay the bill, or pay for todays purchases. The borrower either agrees to higher interest, refinances, makes more promises, or the lender takes title to the land in return for paying off the debt.


    That is the biggest danger I see to our economy. We used to buy cheap labor content stuff and sell high tech stuff. Now we buy buy buy and don't sell much. So the debt builds up. To the credit of the chinese, japanese, indians, etc, they are better at long term planning. We are buying electronics, toys, plastic thingies, disposable or consumable items. They are buying up production equipment, technology, knowledge, mines, sources of raw materials, government bills, and long term assets as well as consumable items. Then, by using that knowledge to build their own economy to make their own consumable stuff, they are in a better position in the future. Our company has sold maybe $50 million of railroad equipment overseas in the last couple years. Maybe half of that is classic buy and trade back and forth. Half is transfer of technology and process and design and knowledge that will only go one way.


    Answers? Way above my head. But I know at 60 I have different goals than back at 25. Personally I have been trying to get off the materialism addiction, consumption and china sourcing in particular. Reducing my consumption, not being a slave to possessions, paying more for usa made or quality made, buying quality stuff once, buying older quality used stuff, and not having to have as much certainly is a freeing experience. Working at getting the debt down on mortgages. No consumer charge card or car debt.

    I need at least some semblance of on topic here: A good book, glass of wine, good wife, sitting by the woodstove with wood I have sawed and split refocuses life's priorities to what is necessary (heat in MN = need) vs what is just wants.

    Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled programming.......

    kcj
  20. iceman

    iceman Minister of Fire

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    well here is the final
    i was all set to keep the 25 ton.... but tsc had demo days this past weekend... the manager called me and made an offer i couldnt resist for the 28 ton! (he was using it for the weekend as a demo) So I am very happy with this new toy.. it is much quieter no vibrating... and the manger did look at mine and say something didnt seem right.... then he started the 28 and and was like "yeah something is different" then for kicks we started a 22 ton ... not as loud as the 25 but not as quiet as the honda and no excessive vibrating .... so he said something was def wrong with mine, as he has one to and it isnt like this .. he thinks something in the engine needs to be replaced/ fixed and it will prolly be alright... he thanked me for being patient and sent me on my way!
  21. daveswoodhauler

    daveswoodhauler Minister of Fire

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    Sounds like all worked out well for you and you got a nice upgrade.
  22. m0jumb0

    m0jumb0 New Member

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    glad to hear you got it resolved. good on tsc for keeping customer satisfaction in mind
  23. savageactor7

    savageactor7 Minister of Fire

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    Good for you ice...now you can start making hay. Always made sense to me that any demo model would be give extra attention on set ups etc. Happy splitting.
  24. Hurricane

    Hurricane Minister of Fire

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    Proves TSC is a good company.

    Glad everyone is happy, now get splitting :)
  25. iceman

    iceman Minister of Fire

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    tsc was good to me as well as speeco i am happy and now i can save my back!
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