Grates in woodstoves.

[grommal]

Thanks for all the replies. Very, Very helpful. It is good to see a difference in opinions on the grate and ash pans. Tells me it is a matter of personal preference. YooperDave...I live in the Iron Mountain area. Looking forward to getting some walleyes this year.

I have heated our house with a wood furnace in the basement for 15 years (Energy King with forced air into our heat ducts, LP forced air for backup heat). This burner is in the opposite end of our house than where the new woodstove will be. If the new woodstove has sufficient heat and is not too hot in our 20 by 20 foot addition (open living room upstairs with two bedrooms in the basement), we will be using the wood furnace much less. The access to this addition will be a 14 foot wide open area from our kitchen and dining area. This open access should allow pretty good heating to the rest of the house from the woodstove. The reason we are getting the woodstove is for the "looks of it" and because I just like tending a fire. Still enjoy lighting up the wood furnace even at the end of the season.

I will be getting the firewood split soon and split small for next fall. I will not be purchasing an "experimental" stove as I was thinking. As pointed out, this does not make sense and just adds cost. I will also check the stoves at Home Depot in town. I see there is much discussion on one of the stoves they sell. I forget the name of it.

Just a quick comment on the ash pan / grate question.

Yes, it is a matter of personal preference. My opinion is that folks who say that ash pans are worthless have never had a stove with a well designed ash removal system. Both my old VC and my new Oslo have great ash pans. On the Oslo, the grate is sized just right so that ash drops all by itself, but not until it's fully burned up. I basically do not rake the coals and ash around at all on the vast majority of reloads. Too much raking just forces small live coals to drop prematurely, filling up the ash pan quickly and losing some of the heat they could have still produced.

The ash pan is big, and it holds 5-8 days worth of 24hour burning. I make sure I empty it first thing in the morning when the stove is cooler, and since the ash pan is cool there is just about zero dust produced (no heat to push the fine dust upward into the air from the ash pan). I empty it once or twice a week. No shoveling. No raking things around trying to separate the live coals from the dead ash. No mess. It literally takes me less than 1 minute once or twice a week to deal with my ashes.

Could I just shovel out my ashes? Sure. Buy why would I want to do that when I have a stove with such a good system?

Don't let the presence of an ash pan be the main driver of the purchasing decision, but don't dismiss it as being useless either. Some are, I'm sure. But some are very useful indeed.

 

[firefighterjake]

When in the "living space" when your not looking for overnight burns, just toss a log or two in there every couple hours. At night when you want the 10 hour burn, pack it and shut it down.

I don't agree with this. EPA non cat stoves requires a hot fire for a clean burn. Throwing 1 or 2 logs in there won't bring the fire box up to temp to create a secondary burn and could make more creosote. I think your better off with a properly sized stove where you can fill the box and control the heat output with the air control.

You might be surprised (I know I was) that a 2 or 3 split fire in my PE will light the secondaries off with no problem in fact during this spring where I only wanted a small amount of heat in the evening I was primarily burning 3 small splits per night and had secondaries with no smoke coming out of the chimney.

Same here . . . it can be done . . . it may be a bit trickier . . . and helps to have had the stove going for a bit so it is already nice and warm . . . but it can be done.

 

[firefighterjake]

welcome aboard eyefish! what part of the u.p. are you in??? just a couple weeks (or so) till walleyes!
the grates sure aren't necessary. years ago, i flip-flopped back and forth between the two types-grates vs. non grates. (used them both at different places.) with the grates, you are able to empty the ash pan while the stove is burning...this allows some hot coals into the ash pan-not a good thing. also, with grates, they will eventually fail...collapse or break due to the operating temps and the adding of wood. this is leads to a replacement cost. with non-grates, you will have to replace an occasional fire brick. the fire is also "out" when you empty ashes. i prefer non-grates.
next- have you previous experience burning? do you have a stove now? if you are near a home depot, go and make them an offer on the stoves, as they will be depleting their remaining stock and wood stoves will be available only online from them. (thats what 4 different home depots told me).
next, get a start on your wood pile, cuz these new stoves are pretty finicky when it comes to burning. the wood has to be very very dry. most members on this site, have their wood cut and split up for at least 2-3 years in advance...some of them have about 6-7 years of wood piled up and ready to go!!

keep in touch and let us know the outcome of your decision. remember, you'll have more questions, and this is the place to get good advice, whatever you decide.

Not sure I completely buy your argument that the grates will eventually fail from the heat or loading of wood . . . I mean I only have had my stove three years so I can't say for sure, but since I only do a complete clean out of my stove at the end of the burning season there is always some ash and coals providing both insulation from the heat of the fire and protection from the wood . . . plus I place my wood in the stove vs. chucking it. Perhaps our resident stove dealers can provide some insight as to whether grates fail very often . . . I mean I have heard of them failing from folks leaving the ash pan door open and creating a blast furnace effect, but not from normal use.

 

[yooperdave]

eyefish, i have some bad news for you. the home depot at iron mt. would not deal on their wood stove prices...along with the home depot at rhinelander. they both stand firm on their reduced prices. i ended up going to wausau wi. for mine. that was before the hike in gas prices. the only other thing, the stove i picked out (from three available) was manufactured in 2007! the guy at englander stoves toll free line started laughing and asked "where have they been hiding that thing? how many times must they had to move it around?"
i was assured that the warranty would be full and start he day i purchased it, and there were no improvements during the last 4 years that would make the stove "obsolete" or "dated". the folks on the englander line were very helpful, some stuff was missing from the stove (go figure; 4 years).
i also looked at tractor supply in iron mt. but they couldn't come close. the brand they sell i u.s.stove co. i think.
sure sounds like the people who have the ash pans prefer them hands down to non-ash pan stoves! you have a lot of comments here, and that is what you will usually get to any questions asked.
if you go with a stove that has a secondary burn system, remember...the fuel has to be drier than dry...not what we're used to, but drier...thats the 2-3 year thing we spoke of earlier.

keep in touch and let me know when the bridge by niagra is open again. i had a trip behind the "cheddar curtain" a few weeks back, and forgot about the bridge being out! ended up driving back into iron mt. headed south to wis. than back roads to around pembine. the pavement was actually better than the highway would've been!

oh yeah...interesting post about the use of coal, huh? hmmm...is it available anywhere by the ton?

 

[yooperdave]

jake, i agree about the blast furnace issue. just going off personal experience about the replacement thing. first stove was an atlanta homesteader...replaced grates two times in there, and they need to be replaced again...(when i quit using it)
next stove was an add-on or free standing by a name of northern leader. from minn. i think. out of business, but a good stove. replaced once in that puppy.
both of the stoves mentioned above had ash pans, and when they were emptied, you always had fly ash around. thats why i prefer to empty ash by hand...more control.

 

[Todd]

When in the "living space" when your not looking for overnight burns, just toss a log or two in there every couple hours. At night when you want the 10 hour burn, pack it and shut it down.

I don't agree with this. EPA non cat stoves requires a hot fire for a clean burn. Throwing 1 or 2 logs in there won't bring the fire box up to temp to create a secondary burn and could make more creosote. I think your better off with a properly sized stove where you can fill the box and control the heat output with the air control.

You might be surprised (I know I was) that a 2 or 3 split fire in my PE will light the secondaries off with no problem in fact during this spring where I only wanted a small amount of heat in the evening I was primarily burning 3 small splits per night and had secondaries with no smoke coming out of the chimney.

Same here . . . it can be done . . . it may be a bit trickier . . . and helps to have had the stove going for a bit so it is already nice and warm . . . but it can be done.

I can see where it could get tricky. Probably lots of variables in this like split size and the coal base but for me I'd just rather fill the dang stove up and control the heat by the air control and not have to worry about throwing a log or 2 in every few hours.

 

[Fsappo]

When in the "living space" when your not looking for overnight burns, just toss a log or two in there every couple hours. At night when you want the 10 hour burn, pack it and shut it down.

I don't agree with this. EPA non cat stoves requires a hot fire for a clean burn. Throwing 1 or 2 logs in there won't bring the fire box up to temp to create a secondary burn and could make more creosote. I think your better off with a properly sized stove where you can fill the box and control the heat output with the air control.

Todd, come to Syracuse! I'll let you pick one of the 10 or so non cat stoves in my showroom, and I'll burn it smoke free on 1/3 or so a load of wood. Do that on a Oslo and he will be fine in that size area. I did fail to mention dry seasoned wood.

 

[laynes69]

We replaced our old woodfurnace with a newer EPA model. While I miss the grates to remove ash, they aren't needed. I'm not to sure how most stoves are setup, but our furnace has a little steel piece that covers our grate the size of a firebrick. I neve use it unless the fire is almost out, otherwise I just remove a couple of scoops a day. With our grates on the old furnace we replaced them twice, they break when least expected. I like a firebrick base better which seems to hold A fire/coals much longer. I wouldn't burn on grates again.

 

[Fsappo]

Yup, most of my caddy furnace customers just let the ash build up a few inches and shovel the thing out once a week.

 

[grommal]

welcome aboard eyefish! what part of the u.p. are you in??? just a couple weeks (or so) till walleyes!
the grates sure aren't necessary. years ago, i flip-flopped back and forth between the two types-grates vs. non grates. (used them both at different places.) with the grates, you are able to empty the ash pan while the stove is burning...this allows some hot coals into the ash pan-not a good thing. also, with grates, they will eventually fail...collapse or break due to the operating temps and the adding of wood. this is leads to a replacement cost. with non-grates, you will have to replace an occasional fire brick. the fire is also "out" when you empty ashes. i prefer non-grates.
next- have you previous experience burning? do you have a stove now? if you are near a home depot, go and make them an offer on the stoves, as they will be depleting their remaining stock and wood stoves will be available only online from them. (thats what 4 different home depots told me).
next, get a start on your wood pile, cuz these new stoves are pretty finicky when it comes to burning. the wood has to be very very dry. most members on this site, have their wood cut and split up for at least 2-3 years in advance...some of them have about 6-7 years of wood piled up and ready to go!!

keep in touch and let us know the outcome of your decision. remember, you'll have more questions, and this is the place to get good advice, whatever you decide.

I think the first two points I put in bold above would depend on the exact design.

I don't get live coals in my ash pan. When I yank the ash pan to dump it, there are no coals on top of the ashes, and no coals mixed in with the ashes. All fine, gray ash, with no lumps. First thing in the morning, the ash pan is often cool enough to grab without gloves, even though the stovetop is still 300F, so there's definitely not a bunch of live coals in there. The trick is to avoid raking the coals/ash around. Raking causes the coals prompts them to drop.

I can't speak to the durability of the grate in the new Oslo, as the stove is only 2 years old. I can tell you that the grate in my old VC was still in great shape after 23 years of hard use. The Oslo grate is thicker, so I'm not anticipating ever replacing it. I'd bet most grate failures come from people cracking the ash pan door open to get the fire started - a definite no-no.

I don't follow the comment about the fire being "out" when ashes are emptied. I burn 24/7, and it never goes completely out unless I don't want to heat any more. In the morning, I have a fabulous coal bed that I can just toss splits on top of, and off she goes. Even if I had a brick floor in my stove and had to shovel ashes, I can't imagine letting the stove go cold just to get the ashes out. I'd have to rake them around to separate the ash from the coals, but I would hope the stove would still be cookin'.

 

[eyefish2]

The reason I am looking for a decent ash removal system with a grate is that I have one now on the Energy King wood furnace I heat the house with. Has been in use since 2002 and I burn from Oct to April every year. 8 years and no signs of any cracks or damage. Cast should never warp I believe. The ash just falls when the wood is burned and I never have to clean out the stove. Just empty the ash pan every couple weeks. It does create a dust bowl when I dump it in my ash can too fast in the basement, which I would not be able to do upstairs in the house. Any other good ash systems besides the Oslo?? I will be checking more stove maker websites. Thanks again. This site can be very addictive. I will have to check the fishing sites and now this one come next winter.

YooperDave ==> Niagra bridge should be open in the fall of 2011.

 

[grommal]

I'll let others chime in on their own stoves. I can only speak to stoves I've run myself.

I dump my ash in a metal can outside the house, so the dust during dumping is a non-issue.

 

[leeave96]

The reason we are getting the woodstove is for the "looks of it" and because I just like tending a fire. Still enjoy lighting up the wood furnace even at the end of the season.

This is exactly what we had in mind when I bought my Woodstock Keystone. I grew-up burning wood and in my old age, I wanted to tinker with a stove again, cutting the wood and all the trappings of wood burning. I could have cared less about the cost of the stove, the price of the chainsaw, etc., etc. After all these years feeding, clothing, housing the family, I thought it was time for a little "toy" for me to play with! As it is in my life, nothing really goes as smooth as it ought and the first snag was getting the family on board. Then we started looking at stoves. Steel plate stoves first, then Vermont Castings (my Dad had a VC Defiant Encore and steel plate stoves) - but the two big things were how's the stove going to look setting cold on the 4th of July in the living room and is this stove going to burn us out of the room. I didn't care for cat stoves as that is what my Dad had in his VC and didn't have much luck with it (turns out it was mostly bad wood and technique) and quickly moved away from the plate steel stoves. After the VC stoves, I looked at the Quadrafire stoves, Isle Royle and Cumberland gap and a few others. One thing that I learned from all my reading on this web site (and asking a lot of questions) was there are a ton of quality stoves. Another thing I quickly found was that there is very little problems with the Woodstock stoves (I would add most other makes to that list - but had read a lot of bad stuff about VC). I changed my opinion of the catalyst combuster as it would be essential for lower temperature clean burns.

In the end, I picked the Woodstock Keystone. It fits our space nicely, VERY easy on the eyes and with it's super large front glass and andirons, it looks like a small fireplace setting in the room. Wonderful stove and even heat with the soapstone. I think a lot of stoves you will read on this forum are great stoves. If you are into tinkering and "looks" and you are heating a 20 x 20 space, it sounds like a Keystone might fit the bill. Todd has some great videos of his Keystone burning on youtube. Oh - before I forget, we wound-up heating our house with the Keystone for kicks, keeping the furnance off probably 90 percent of the time. Our stove sets on one end of the house and we are adding an addition to the other end with a den in the basement. I bought a clearance Englander 30 for that install mostly for price vs looks. Depending on how we like it, we will keep it long term or swap it out for a nicer looking stove in a few years - but if you are only buying 1 stove, get one you will be happy with long term. BTW, Woodstock use to have a 6 month money back guarantee if you get one of their stoves and are not happy with it after some months of burning.

Good luck,
Bill

 

[Todd]

I'll let others chime in on their own stoves. I can only speak to stoves I've run myself.

I dump my ash in a metal can outside the house, so the dust during dumping is a non-issue.

Me too

 

[laynes69]

How much wood do you use with the energy king? I would think besides the looks of the fire, shouldn't your wood furnace be able to handle the addition along with the house?

 

[eyefish2]

I burn 3-4 cord a year with the wood furnace. It should be able to heat our house with the addition. The addition may be a little cooler since it is on the opposite of the house. The wood stove in the addition will be supplement heat. On warmer winter days, I amy just rely on the stove.

 

[Intheswamp]

Random thoughts . . .

First off, welcome to the site . . . keep reading . . . you should have days of reading ahead of you . . . there's lots of good information here.

Gotta respectfully disagree with Franks about the only good ash pan being a covered ash pan . . . the Oslo has a decent ash pan, but it is not covered . . . and when dumping it outside in my ash can I don't end up with any ash flying about the house . . . of course I'm also not running outside or flailing around like a hyperactive kid in a candy store . . . truthfully . . . I get more of a mess from the ash when I attempt to sweep some of it off the hearth.

I've got to respectfully disagree with Jake....you should have weeks or months of reading ahead of you here on hearth.com!

Ed

 

[firefighterjake]

I'll let others chime in on their own stoves. I can only speak to stoves I've run myself.

I dump my ash in a metal can outside the house, so the dust during dumping is a non-issue.

Same here . . . even though I rarely find any coals in my ash pan I treat it as though there may be a hot coal in the ash pan . . . so I always take it outside to dump into the ash pan . . . and the pan is typically sitting on a non-combustible surface.

 

[firefighterjake]

Random thoughts . . .

First off, welcome to the site . . . keep reading . . . you should have days of reading ahead of you . . . there's lots of good information here.

Gotta respectfully disagree with Franks about the only good ash pan being a covered ash pan . . . the Oslo has a decent ash pan, but it is not covered . . . and when dumping it outside in my ash can I don't end up with any ash flying about the house . . . of course I'm also not running outside or flailing around like a hyperactive kid in a candy store . . . truthfully . . . I get more of a mess from the ash when I attempt to sweep some of it off the hearth.

I've got to respectfully disagree with Jake....you should have weeks or months of reading ahead of you here on hearth.com!

Ed

I'm a fast reader.

 

[eyefish2]

I appreciate the replies. The search continues. Currently prefer the Jotul Oslo. Also starting to look at the Harman Oakwood. The Harman site does not have as good of a drawing as Jotul. I did stop by the area Home Depot to check out the Englander 30 (no luck - price was $1199).

 

[Intheswamp]

Random thoughts . . .

First off, welcome to the site . . . keep reading . . . you should have days of reading ahead of you . . . there's lots of good information here.

Gotta respectfully disagree with Franks about the only good ash pan being a covered ash pan . . . the Oslo has a decent ash pan, but it is not covered . . . and when dumping it outside in my ash can I don't end up with any ash flying about the house . . . of course I'm also not running outside or flailing around like a hyperactive kid in a candy store . . . truthfully . . . I get more of a mess from the ash when I attempt to sweep some of it off the hearth.

I've got to respectfully disagree with Jake....you should have weeks or months of reading ahead of you here on hearth.com!

Ed

I'm a fast reader.

I take it that you took the Evelyn Woohead Sped Reddin' Course? ;-)

 

[firefighterjake]

Random thoughts . . .

First off, welcome to the site . . . keep reading . . . you should have days of reading ahead of you . . . there's lots of good information here.

Gotta respectfully disagree with Franks about the only good ash pan being a covered ash pan . . . the Oslo has a decent ash pan, but it is not covered . . . and when dumping it outside in my ash can I don't end up with any ash flying about the house . . . of course I'm also not running outside or flailing around like a hyperactive kid in a candy store . . . truthfully . . . I get more of a mess from the ash when I attempt to sweep some of it off the hearth.

I've got to respectfully disagree with Jake....you should have weeks or months of reading ahead of you here on hearth.com!

Ed

I'm a fast reader.

I take it that you took the Evelyn Woohead Sped Reddin' Course? ;-)

Nope . . . just got fast after all those years of trying to decipher Pookese. . . . Must admit half the time I didn't know what he was trying to say . . .