galen
New Member
Rick if you can be there when he "fixes" the stove, watch him and see if it looks like a bandaid fix. I didn't like the stuffing fix behind the screwhead at all.
Harman XXV Buzzing
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HarryBack
New Member
Rick-In-RI said:Harry
The latest, greatest fix as you had mentioned:
The infamous “radiator clamp fix” secures the shroud housing...hard to explain where it is, but, its fed above the exhaust port from the combustion fan side, out to the other side, and around, tightened, and it supposedly stops the buzzing is the exact fix that the rep at Harman spoke to me about on Friday.
So let's recap what we know at this point.
Fix #1 - Place gasket material or silicone between the distribution blower and the shroud.
FAILED!
Fix #2 - The screw holding to two sections of the shroud together need to be backed off.
Then place gasket material behind the screw and between the distribution blower
and the shroud. Another option was to use silicone in place of the gasket material
FAILED!
Fix #3 - Replace the distribution blower's motor. FAILED!
Fix # 4- Apply a 4 1/2 hose clamp--The Jury is out
I don't know about anyone else, but, as I have said several times, these are "Band-Aid" fixes
and I don't have much faith in any of them.
In any case, my dealer called (finally) and is supposed to come out this afternoon to apply fix # 4. Having said that, when I asked him what time he would be arriving, I got the "I have to check my schedule and let you know." Translation: I'm not going to show up at all
well, here I go......please excuse me all for my next rant:
One reason why I considered posting here is because I had a few ideas as to what might stop the buzzing issue. Obviously you didnt appreciate the fact that someone might have a suggestion or two as to what could possibly be done in an attempt to remedy the situation. This is the exact reason why it usually isnt a good idea to service, or help, folks who didnt buy the unit from you. You get a PO'd person who is mad at YOU already for the failings of another....so you are entering with 3 strikes against you already....how can one win? Well, you are castigating ME for the radiator hose clamp fix, not having tried it at all.....Im guessing I told you about the fix long before your dealer would....but IM the bad guy.......it doesnt sound to me like youll be satisfied even if the fix does work....why dont you tell him that before he spends all kinds of time and effort trying to appease you, when you seem unappeaseable.
Its possible that I misread your post, and that I took offense where none was meant to be, but I cannot fail to read between the lines of your post, and I understand you might be upset, but please dont blame me for issues you might have with your dealer or Harman......maybe it would be best for me to sit back, just lurk here and read the posts....chuckle a bit at your misfortunes even if I do possibly know of a fix......... :coolmad:
Harry;
My apologies. I guess that I came sounding as though I was trashing you, but my intent was to trash Harman. So, for that, I am truly sorry. If it hadn’t been for you, I would be S.O.L. I do appreciate all your help, so please accept my apology.
Well, here’s the deal. Ocean State came out this afternoon to fix this monster. When I walked in, he had the heat and the distribution blower crank all the way up. From that, he told me he had it running this way for twenty minutes and he couldn’t replicate the noise. GREAT!
When I asked what he had done up to that point, he said that he had removed the distribution mounting screws (located under the stove on the side of the shroud) leaving the distribution blower running in a suspended state. That in turn pulled the distribution housing away so it no longer was in contact with the shroud and, in my case, the source of the noise. He then pushed up on the distribution blower from underneath the stove, and the noise started again. When he let up on it, the noise stopped. Push up on it again and it started, let up on it and it stopped. We preformed this cycle several times with the same result. At that point we both agreed to forego the clamp and just leave the distribution blower running in a suspended state as a temporary fix. He’s also going to call Harman, let them know what he found and wait to see what they say.
Again, Harry, I’m sorry! My intention was to rant at Harman not at you. I do appreciate all your help.
My apologies. I guess that I came sounding as though I was trashing you, but my intent was to trash Harman. So, for that, I am truly sorry. If it hadn’t been for you, I would be S.O.L. I do appreciate all your help, so please accept my apology.
Well, here’s the deal. Ocean State came out this afternoon to fix this monster. When I walked in, he had the heat and the distribution blower crank all the way up. From that, he told me he had it running this way for twenty minutes and he couldn’t replicate the noise. GREAT!
When I asked what he had done up to that point, he said that he had removed the distribution mounting screws (located under the stove on the side of the shroud) leaving the distribution blower running in a suspended state. That in turn pulled the distribution housing away so it no longer was in contact with the shroud and, in my case, the source of the noise. He then pushed up on the distribution blower from underneath the stove, and the noise started again. When he let up on it, the noise stopped. Push up on it again and it started, let up on it and it stopped. We preformed this cycle several times with the same result. At that point we both agreed to forego the clamp and just leave the distribution blower running in a suspended state as a temporary fix. He’s also going to call Harman, let them know what he found and wait to see what they say.
Again, Harry, I’m sorry! My intention was to rant at Harman not at you. I do appreciate all your help.
All,
I went back and re-read that post that I wrote Monday morning and, boy, did I come off looking like a dumb-a$$. It definitely looked like I was pointing the finger at Harry and I can easily see how it could be taken wrong way. Once again, my rage was directed at Harman for sending four different technical bulletins without making absolutely sure they would work.
Harry does provide a great deal of knowledge to this forum and I just hope that he will continue to share that knowledge with others. I would hate to think that I ruined it for everyone. So, once again, I would like to apologize to Harry and to anyone else that took offense to that posting (I guess that I shouldn’t post any messages so early on a Monday morning especially when I so grouchy!)
Well, as a result of removing those two mounting screws that hold the distribution blower housing in place, the XXV has been nice and quite all night long. It will be interesting to see what Harman comes back with after my dealer tells them what we found. I guess that I am a little concerned with the distribution blower floating like it is, especially if it ends up doing damage to the motor. So, before anyone starts turning screws, I would suggest that we wait and see what Harman comes back with.
I went back and re-read that post that I wrote Monday morning and, boy, did I come off looking like a dumb-a$$. It definitely looked like I was pointing the finger at Harry and I can easily see how it could be taken wrong way. Once again, my rage was directed at Harman for sending four different technical bulletins without making absolutely sure they would work.
Harry does provide a great deal of knowledge to this forum and I just hope that he will continue to share that knowledge with others. I would hate to think that I ruined it for everyone. So, once again, I would like to apologize to Harry and to anyone else that took offense to that posting (I guess that I shouldn’t post any messages so early on a Monday morning especially when I so grouchy!)
Well, as a result of removing those two mounting screws that hold the distribution blower housing in place, the XXV has been nice and quite all night long. It will be interesting to see what Harman comes back with after my dealer tells them what we found. I guess that I am a little concerned with the distribution blower floating like it is, especially if it ends up doing damage to the motor. So, before anyone starts turning screws, I would suggest that we wait and see what Harman comes back with.
i'm amazed to hear that this is still going on. if you guys with the buzzing put your hand on the blower when it's running and it's vibrating like crazy that means 1 of 2 things the motor is out of balance or a bad bearing or your fan is out of balance. the fan thing is very easy to do. and that's why some units buzz and some don't. all you have to do is slightly bend or put out of shape one of those fins on the fan and it's out of balance. with all the money you've paid for those stove (and i hope harmon is listening because thy should be ashamed of themselves for letting this go on as long as they did.) they should have came out and replaced the whole blower assembly and bang, the whole problem of unhappy customers and maybe a bad name for themselves is gone in a quick one time visit. to put it in different words that unbalanced fan is like a tire on your car being unbalanced and your driving on the highway at 60 mph. and if they just leave that unbalanced motor or fan what ever it is in there and stop the buzzing you hear now it's only a matter of time before something else vibrates loose and starts the buzz all over again.
your paying for a top of the line stove you should be getting top of the line parts, not some 15 or 20 dollar bathroom fan motor. i feel bad for you guys that company shouldn't be treating anyone like that and if they find that one of they dealers is not treating a customer right then they should not be dealing with that dealer. your dealer is their front man and can make or break that company. especially if the company insists on making their front man take care of their customers
this posting is not aimed at the stove owners but the company that makes the stove.
your paying for a top of the line stove you should be getting top of the line parts, not some 15 or 20 dollar bathroom fan motor. i feel bad for you guys that company shouldn't be treating anyone like that and if they find that one of they dealers is not treating a customer right then they should not be dealing with that dealer. your dealer is their front man and can make or break that company. especially if the company insists on making their front man take care of their customers
this posting is not aimed at the stove owners but the company that makes the stove.
HarryBack
New Member
lol- dont be worried about looking like a dumb a$$m RI, read some of my posts, I do it all the time! Im thinking maybe it might be better to put washers under the plate to space it down, but also it will allow you to secure the screws so they arent loose...Im a little converned that they may owrk their way loose and your fan will drop right onto the floor.
As for Harman, I still stand by them...they are a great company with great folks working there. Yes, the dealer assists in making or breaking them, but their product goes a long way towards making or breaking themselves as well. I cant tell you how many complaints Ive had from customers about my closest neighboring dealer.......alot......ALOT! But, lets say Harman pulls their line.....someone else will have to take over the line, and take care of the customers as well.....i cannot imagine what a nightmare that might be........
As for Harman, I still stand by them...they are a great company with great folks working there. Yes, the dealer assists in making or breaking them, but their product goes a long way towards making or breaking themselves as well. I cant tell you how many complaints Ive had from customers about my closest neighboring dealer.......alot......ALOT! But, lets say Harman pulls their line.....someone else will have to take over the line, and take care of the customers as well.....i cannot imagine what a nightmare that might be........
Harry,
I agree with you that I should not let that distribution blower hang loose like it is. I'm waiting to hear from my dealer (Yes folks, Ocean State did finally show up!) who was to contact Harman and see what they say.
I still wonder if that clamp is the answer in that it must somehow force the distribution blower housing down and away from the shroud. It also makes me wonder if, during the manufacturing process, the oversized some of these distribution blower housing units a bit. Hopefully, we will have an answer soon.
Pete S
Any progress on your XXV ???
I agree with you that I should not let that distribution blower hang loose like it is. I'm waiting to hear from my dealer (Yes folks, Ocean State did finally show up!) who was to contact Harman and see what they say.
I still wonder if that clamp is the answer in that it must somehow force the distribution blower housing down and away from the shroud. It also makes me wonder if, during the manufacturing process, the oversized some of these distribution blower housing units a bit. Hopefully, we will have an answer soon.
Pete S
Any progress on your XXV ???
My dealer will be out for the 6th time implementing one of Harman's latest fixes. Yes the hose clamp.
My dealer agreed with my proposal to just swap my stove for their floor model, but after I learned that the floor model had the 25th anniversary logo ontop, I went back to preferring the hose clamp fix. Sounds kind of funny, a "hose clamp" to fix what is an obvious design/fabrication error on Harmans part.
Again, I have nothing but kudo's for my dealer, they have worked on my stove who knows how many times. Their hands are pretty much tied, and they have to keep on trying different fixes,... unless Harman agrees to take the stove back. This must be why the lemon law was established.
What I find hard to understand is why after 4-5 months of Harman not being able to come up with a fix, why they feel it is good business to just force the loss of value off onto their end consumer.
My dealer agreed with my proposal to just swap my stove for their floor model, but after I learned that the floor model had the 25th anniversary logo ontop, I went back to preferring the hose clamp fix. Sounds kind of funny, a "hose clamp" to fix what is an obvious design/fabrication error on Harmans part.
Again, I have nothing but kudo's for my dealer, they have worked on my stove who knows how many times. Their hands are pretty much tied, and they have to keep on trying different fixes,... unless Harman agrees to take the stove back. This must be why the lemon law was established.
What I find hard to understand is why after 4-5 months of Harman not being able to come up with a fix, why they feel it is good business to just force the loss of value off onto their end consumer.
The Harman rep came to my home yesterday and implemented the factory designed fix (metal band clamp) which I truly believe is the final cureall for this issue. I am very comfortable that this fix will work (I know I have said that before, but I really think this did it).
He explained that the Harman finally found one with this issue that their engineers could analyze (not sure why they didn't just have mine shipped back to them 4 months ago). As I understand their explanation, Harmans engineers say the buzz is generated by the magnetic field emitted by the distribution blower motor which causes a very high frequency low amplitude vibration in the shroud . Their fix he implemented adds a large metal clamp band (aka hose clamp) strapped around the exhaust line. The clamp tightens up the contact between a section of sheet metal (contiguous with the shroud...I think?) which is overlapped onto the exhaust line, and prevents them from tapping against eachother. This metal band clamp looks like the stove could have been designed with it (doesn't look hokey at all, like mine and other posts have indicated).
As it is very clear that high frequency vibrations in the shroud sheet metal were causing it to tap on someother section of metal, we also cut the tip of the sheet metal screw off which connects the two sections of the shroud together (just in case the tip of it was contracting the distribution blower housing, because based on earliar poking and prodding, it sure did seem like the source of the noise). This sheet metal screw was about 3/4" long, alot longer than it needs to be.
Also as one of the previous fixes was loosening the screws on the distribution blower box, he made sure to that the blower box was replaced back in a tight secure position. I didn't want to mention this in earliar posts for fear of getting flamed as a whiner, but during an earliar repair attempt, one of the methods of repair was to back off on these screws to lower the distribution blower down a hair. As after they implemented this fix and the section of gasket fix, the buzz occured with less frequency, but then stove in general seemed to be more noisy (I believe that this was due to this distributio blower box not being mounted securely).
One other thing worth mentioning is that during this fix, we took out the exhaust blower to examine if it needed to be cleaned out. As I have burned close to 2 tons of pellets through this stove, I was expecting to see alot of ash deposits built up on both on the fins and the housing of the exhaust blower. There wasn't any. This reminded me of what Harry said in an earliar post (these Harmans burn extremely clean). As he is a Harman dealer I just chalked that up salemen talk. What he said is true, unlike my Whitfield Advantage III which I had for 10 years, this XXV does burn really clean. When I would clean the Whitfield exhaust blower (one to two times per season), it was caked with ash, along with the exhaust pipe. Something about how they designed this stove, the ash doesn't seem to get pulled through the exhaust.
In summary, I think this latest fix was it. I know it has has only been one night, but this stove is now running really quiet, more quiet than ever.
With respect to Harman, I still think they should have taken mine or someone elses stove back to the factory back in November, rather than making their customers (Rick in RI, me and anyone else with the issue) and have us beta test their proposed fixes. It would have been a win-win situation for both of us. Neither Rick nor I would have had to endure this buzz for as along as we have had to, and Harman would not have had to have who knows how many potential future XXV buyers read this thread (1,800 plus and counting). Harman makes a solid stove, but needs to work on their customer relations.
He explained that the Harman finally found one with this issue that their engineers could analyze (not sure why they didn't just have mine shipped back to them 4 months ago). As I understand their explanation, Harmans engineers say the buzz is generated by the magnetic field emitted by the distribution blower motor which causes a very high frequency low amplitude vibration in the shroud . Their fix he implemented adds a large metal clamp band (aka hose clamp) strapped around the exhaust line. The clamp tightens up the contact between a section of sheet metal (contiguous with the shroud...I think?) which is overlapped onto the exhaust line, and prevents them from tapping against eachother. This metal band clamp looks like the stove could have been designed with it (doesn't look hokey at all, like mine and other posts have indicated).
As it is very clear that high frequency vibrations in the shroud sheet metal were causing it to tap on someother section of metal, we also cut the tip of the sheet metal screw off which connects the two sections of the shroud together (just in case the tip of it was contracting the distribution blower housing, because based on earliar poking and prodding, it sure did seem like the source of the noise). This sheet metal screw was about 3/4" long, alot longer than it needs to be.
Also as one of the previous fixes was loosening the screws on the distribution blower box, he made sure to that the blower box was replaced back in a tight secure position. I didn't want to mention this in earliar posts for fear of getting flamed as a whiner, but during an earliar repair attempt, one of the methods of repair was to back off on these screws to lower the distribution blower down a hair. As after they implemented this fix and the section of gasket fix, the buzz occured with less frequency, but then stove in general seemed to be more noisy (I believe that this was due to this distributio blower box not being mounted securely).
One other thing worth mentioning is that during this fix, we took out the exhaust blower to examine if it needed to be cleaned out. As I have burned close to 2 tons of pellets through this stove, I was expecting to see alot of ash deposits built up on both on the fins and the housing of the exhaust blower. There wasn't any. This reminded me of what Harry said in an earliar post (these Harmans burn extremely clean). As he is a Harman dealer I just chalked that up salemen talk. What he said is true, unlike my Whitfield Advantage III which I had for 10 years, this XXV does burn really clean. When I would clean the Whitfield exhaust blower (one to two times per season), it was caked with ash, along with the exhaust pipe. Something about how they designed this stove, the ash doesn't seem to get pulled through the exhaust.
In summary, I think this latest fix was it. I know it has has only been one night, but this stove is now running really quiet, more quiet than ever.
With respect to Harman, I still think they should have taken mine or someone elses stove back to the factory back in November, rather than making their customers (Rick in RI, me and anyone else with the issue) and have us beta test their proposed fixes. It would have been a win-win situation for both of us. Neither Rick nor I would have had to endure this buzz for as along as we have had to, and Harman would not have had to have who knows how many potential future XXV buyers read this thread (1,800 plus and counting). Harman makes a solid stove, but needs to work on their customer relations.
HarryBack
New Member
Congrats! Glad to hear the "hose clamp fix" worked for your stove. Even though the stove is fairly clean burning, make sure you do a complete cleanup at the end of the season to ensure easy startup in the fall.....with my own, we also coat the firebox and fans with oil once cleaned to act as a rust barrier in our humid off-season months. Hope this works for you, Pete.
pelletheat
New Member
- Jan 11, 2006
- 72
Pete,
Hopefully Rick in RI will see your post and have his dealer at his door by 8am Monday morning........
Hopefully Rick in RI will see your post and have his dealer at his door by 8am Monday morning........
I am going to call my dealer this morning a let him know that the clamp seems to be the cure-all. Better yet, I let him tell me what he has found!
It’s only 8 degrees here in New England this morning and the XXV should be cranking without me worrying about the distribution blower falling out of the bottom of the stove.
Harry,
What type of oil are we supposed to use to coat the fins and the fans?
It’s only 8 degrees here in New England this morning and the XXV should be cranking without me worrying about the distribution blower falling out of the bottom of the stove.
Harry,
What type of oil are we supposed to use to coat the fins and the fans?
HarryBack
New Member
Rick:
Sorry for the long winded explanation above. Long story short...... after getting the hose clamp installed, MAKE SURE YOU CUT THE SCREW OFF which joins the two pieces of sheet metal shroud together (because I still feel like this might have been the culprit). To cut it, I removed it, then grabbed onto it really hard with adjustable pliers and cut it off with a sawzall). Then make sure the box is mounted up tight (hard to believe one of their proposed fixes was to loosen this). If they stall off on coming out to install the clamp, then you might consider just doing these steps yourself.
I also noticed on the lower right (as viewed from the back) that there was another sheet metal screw which comes up through the floor which was right adjacent to a section of the shroud (or someother vertical sheetmetal abbutting the floor). It looked like it might be close enough to be in contact with the shroud so we packed the old piece of gasket (from before... remember that fix?) between the screw and the shroud.
Again...this stove has never been this quiet ...EVER. I finally feel like a made a sound $3000 investment. I think you are almost there.
Sorry for the long winded explanation above. Long story short...... after getting the hose clamp installed, MAKE SURE YOU CUT THE SCREW OFF which joins the two pieces of sheet metal shroud together (because I still feel like this might have been the culprit). To cut it, I removed it, then grabbed onto it really hard with adjustable pliers and cut it off with a sawzall). Then make sure the box is mounted up tight (hard to believe one of their proposed fixes was to loosen this). If they stall off on coming out to install the clamp, then you might consider just doing these steps yourself.
I also noticed on the lower right (as viewed from the back) that there was another sheet metal screw which comes up through the floor which was right adjacent to a section of the shroud (or someother vertical sheetmetal abbutting the floor). It looked like it might be close enough to be in contact with the shroud so we packed the old piece of gasket (from before... remember that fix?) between the screw and the shroud.
Again...this stove has never been this quiet ...EVER. I finally feel like a made a sound $3000 investment. I think you are almost there.
Pete S,
I was just wondering how your stove is doing now that they installed the clamp.
I called my dealer last Friday asking him to do the same to my stove. That was several days ago and I'm still waiting to hear back from him. LiKe Yogi said "It's Daja Vou all over again!"
I was just wondering how your stove is doing now that they installed the clamp.
I called my dealer last Friday asking him to do the same to my stove. That was several days ago and I'm still waiting to hear back from him. LiKe Yogi said "It's Daja Vou all over again!"
I've been clamped!
Ocean State came out to my house yesterday and applied the clamp to my stove. So far, so good!
Although it took Harman several months to get a handle on it and three months to get my stove fixed, I just glad that it's over with. I'm also equally glad that Ocean State did finally make good on it.
Ocean State came out to my house yesterday and applied the clamp to my stove. So far, so good!
Although it took Harman several months to get a handle on it and three months to get my stove fixed, I just glad that it's over with. I'm also equally glad that Ocean State did finally make good on it.
We have started a Yahoo Harman pellet stove users group - it was just started and have at least one tech and 40+ Harman owners so far - you might want to join - someone might be able to help you. If you are interested go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/harmanpelletstoveusers/.
patfan said:
Hey patfan. go to the 2nd paragraph of post #60 on this thread for a description of where the clamp was placed.
FYI, since the fix, my XXV has run flawlessly for the past 3 seasons (non stop 6 mo/yr 24/7, except for cleaning shutdowns), now into the 4th season with it, and I still love it and highly recommend it.
I haven't been to this website for a long while. Not sure how the Harman Stove Co is doing since they were bought. HarryB you still here? And why start a new yahoo group. You can't beat this one, too many knowledgeable people on this site.
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