Just be careful. I sometimes leave the metal ash can near the stove, because I only put ashes in it that are the residue of a fire two or three days earlier. I always check to see if there is any danger of heat before leaving it inside. If there are live coals (or any potential of live coals), I put the ash can on a brick patio out back. So, the presence of an ash can near a fireplace does not necessarily indicate any danger.
Hearth ash buckets
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It is.yooperdave said:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVBsGRrtIRM&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
The reason carbon monoxide is so much more dangerous is because the molecule is short the oxygen it needs to be stable. It will bond readily with the oxygen in your body.
My final thought on the subject . . .
I have yet to hear of any fire or CO incident involving ashes/coals in a covered metal pail sitting outside on a non-combustible surface away from the home or other combustibles . . . admittedly I also have not heard of any CO calls involving ash/coal inside . . . however I'm one of those "belt and suspenders" sort of guys when it comes to safety . . . if I can significantly reduce any likelihood of a fire or CO issue by easily walking 20 steps outside with my ash bucket vs. just keeping the ash bucket on the hearth I will do so . . . and not regret the "extra work" and in the process sleep quite well at night.
I have yet to hear of any fire or CO incident involving ashes/coals in a covered metal pail sitting outside on a non-combustible surface away from the home or other combustibles . . . admittedly I also have not heard of any CO calls involving ash/coal inside . . . however I'm one of those "belt and suspenders" sort of guys when it comes to safety . . . if I can significantly reduce any likelihood of a fire or CO issue by easily walking 20 steps outside with my ash bucket vs. just keeping the ash bucket on the hearth I will do so . . . and not regret the "extra work" and in the process sleep quite well at night.
~*~Kathleen~*~ said:
Well, my fellow biologist, if that happened wouldn't you have just made carbon dioxide and can simply exhale it?
Actually, CO is a fairly stable molecule. All by itself, it does not decompose with heat, but since it is a combustible gas, it will readily combine with another oxygen atom at high temperatures (like 1100ºF inside your secondary flames) to form carbon dioxide. The real reason why CO is so dangerous is that it binds to the same binding sites on the hemoglobin molecule that oxygen uses. The problem with that is that CO has about 250 times the affinity for hemoglobin as does O2, so it effectively blocks the oxygen from binding and you get hypoxic. To makes matters worse, CO binding to even one of the four O2 binding sites increase the affinity that O2 has for hemoglobin, so even though it does bind to the other three available sites, the bond is so strong that the O2 can't release from the molecule at the tissue level and you still get hypoxic. The deceiving thing about this type of hypoxia is that, instead of turning blue, you turn pink because the form of hemoglobin that has CO bound to it is bright red in color.
The body makes small amounts of CO naturally, so a normal healthy person will have between 0.5-1% of their hemoglobin bound to CO at any given time. City dwellers can have up to 5% bound up by CO. A cigarette smoker might have up to 10% of their hemoglobin tied up by CO at all times, heavy smokers as high as 20%. After all, what is a cigarette but a smoldering stick of plant matter? No wonder smokers feel like crap and can't climb a set of stairs without collapsing. Only a small percentage of smokers will get lung cancer, but every single smoker is poisoning themselves all day long, continually binding their precious hemoglobin with highly toxic CO. Today is as good a day to quit killing yourself as any.
Just how toxic is CO?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning
Concentration Symptoms
35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight hours of constant exposure
100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours
200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours; loss of judgment
400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours
800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 min; insensible within 2 hours
1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, tachycardia, dizziness, and nausea within 20 min; death in less than 2 hours
3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Convulsions, respiratory arrest, and death in less than 20 minutes.
12,800 ppm (1.28%) Unconsciousness after 2-3 breaths. Death in less than three minutes.
So, no, I do not think it is anything to mess around with.
I must say over the weekend i had to empty ashes out of a hot stove. it just crept up on me, rather then when the stove is out or near there to empty. anyhow because of reading this, i did take the hot ashes, with a few bits of coals i couldnt avoid, outside placed a brick on the top.
I really am more concerned with the heat the CO emissions. Honestly i suck in more crap driving to and from work, walking though a steel shop, then a small can of some ash and coals. I find the fire hazard to be more of a concern then CO.
Dangerous, yes kills plenty. They dont call it the silent killer for nothing. I would much rather see folks install CO detectors and worry about more important things in life. if the levels are dangerous then it goes off. I havent heard mine because of the ash bucket...yet. (and yes they work)
And i mean no disrespect, but wikipedia? any moron can put crap on there. Like myself.
Think about how many times you open the stove door. the amount of CO that is in the stove and released at that time is more then bits and pieces your able to put in a bucket. even in my small stove.
but like i said earlier, because of this thread i am more wise to the fire hazard. which means quite a bit.
be safe stay warm
I really am more concerned with the heat the CO emissions. Honestly i suck in more crap driving to and from work, walking though a steel shop, then a small can of some ash and coals. I find the fire hazard to be more of a concern then CO.
Dangerous, yes kills plenty. They dont call it the silent killer for nothing. I would much rather see folks install CO detectors and worry about more important things in life. if the levels are dangerous then it goes off. I havent heard mine because of the ash bucket...yet. (and yes they work)
And i mean no disrespect, but wikipedia? any moron can put crap on there. Like myself.
Think about how many times you open the stove door. the amount of CO that is in the stove and released at that time is more then bits and pieces your able to put in a bucket. even in my small stove.
but like i said earlier, because of this thread i am more wise to the fire hazard. which means quite a bit.
be safe stay warm
Stump_Branch said:
No disrespect felt, but... If I give a bunch of technical info here and don't cite a source, people act like I fabricated it. If I find a credible bit of info, from whatever source, the validity of that info is then called into question. Why bother posting anything at all if that's the case?
FWIW, I never link to a Wiki entry unless I'm pretty damn sure that the information contained is accurate. I've read a lot more about CO than what is in that Wiki entry, but it's a lot easier to find a good writeup that I feel is accurate so others can take the time to read it and I don't have to further strain my typing finger. I do not hold Wiki up as the last word on any matter, but there is a butt load of good information there if you learn to know it when you see it.
Do you have a source to back that up? I weld on galvanized metal from time to time and never had a problem with it. Have heard of zinc fume fever from welding lots of galvanized, but I can;t find mention of galvanized creating phosgene in any book I have, and in fact google search pulled up many sources that stated no phosgene.
yooperdave said:
NATE379 said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_fume_fever
Sorry, Stump_Branch, I couldn't resist. ;-)
Battenkiller,
No need to apologize for wikipedia, and you are right on, nobody is going to read the scholarly papers anyway except those who want to know the truth and are capable of finding them. I just shoveled ashes out of my stove, with some coals, and I suspended my Kidd KN-COPP-3 over the bucket without putting the lid on it to see if there was any carbon monoxide present. No parts per million after 5 minutes. Apparently, either the unit is not working, or there is no carbon monoxide present.
I will vote for the latter. If I wanted to kill the canary, I would have had to bake the little featherduster, slowly.
It amuses me that people are forever looking for things to worry about or obsess over. The fairy tale regarding Chicken Little is illustrative. Rather than educate themselves regarding the issues, or conducting a simple experiment, or coming to understand that CO formation from burning wood is highest early in the process of pyrolysis and requires high temperatures. By the time that we are putting the ashes and embers in a bucket the material is relatively inert, cool, and chemical processes have waned.
Oh, and I almost forgot, when they are told the demonstrable, experimentally proven, repeatable by anybody, totally measurable, hasn't changed since Noah was a cabin boy truth, they want to argue because it does not fit their preconceptions.
No need to apologize for wikipedia, and you are right on, nobody is going to read the scholarly papers anyway except those who want to know the truth and are capable of finding them. I just shoveled ashes out of my stove, with some coals, and I suspended my Kidd KN-COPP-3 over the bucket without putting the lid on it to see if there was any carbon monoxide present. No parts per million after 5 minutes. Apparently, either the unit is not working, or there is no carbon monoxide present.
I will vote for the latter. If I wanted to kill the canary, I would have had to bake the little featherduster, slowly.
It amuses me that people are forever looking for things to worry about or obsess over. The fairy tale regarding Chicken Little is illustrative. Rather than educate themselves regarding the issues, or conducting a simple experiment, or coming to understand that CO formation from burning wood is highest early in the process of pyrolysis and requires high temperatures. By the time that we are putting the ashes and embers in a bucket the material is relatively inert, cool, and chemical processes have waned.
Oh, and I almost forgot, when they are told the demonstrable, experimentally proven, repeatable by anybody, totally measurable, hasn't changed since Noah was a cabin boy truth, they want to argue because it does not fit their preconceptions.
My coals go directly in the bed warmer and under the covers. It sure feels good to get in a nice warm bed ! Just kidding.
No, i meant no disrespect. Honestly i know the wiki is great for finding info. Not works cited by itself. My point is that the CO issue shouldnt be reason, the rather fire hazard. (having a hearth bucket) It seems more 'bad' fires or house fires happen then those who are affected by the CO because of improper storage. Just my guess though, i cant wiki it at the molment.
Stump_Branch said:
If you go to a wiki page you will find that there are a number of links, in blue, that lead you to the original works, and additional lists of sources for the information printed. These are in fact links to references cited by themselves. The wiki is the result of what the readers of the original works and contributors to the article decided was factual based on the information presented in those works.
What "seems" to be correct, as stated in your "guess" is unlikely to the point of being absurd and that is the reason that you cannot "wiki it at the moment." Hearth.com provides a wealth of information in the form of articles and studies that are educational and that answer a lot of questions. This thread is a form of wiki as are many of the threads in Hearth.com. This post is part of the editing process for this wiki. The free exchange of ideas, facts, and references is how knowledge is created and promulgated and in this process facts get checked. Nonsense gets made light of, no disrespect intended, just giving credit where credit is due.
nope i could wiki because i dont have very good access to the internet. it was meant as a joke. I am light hearted most of the time.
Please dont take my slight against wiki as somehow personal to poster or wiki (i dont want ot upset it). I know how it works, and i use it from time to time. i know how the notion of a forum works as well. however if you search here as well as any other user edited document, then you will find mis-information, often times cited again and again. My comment was you shouldnt cite wiki rather the source it came from, that it. I blame the schools. you wouldnt quote a cliff notes version of a book would you?
My guess is that, a guess not an inflated exageration. i dont have anything to prove that 'improper ash disposal causes more house fires then CO issues' it was merely the asserition of my comments. if i had facts then i wouldnt say my guess.
seriously i have nothing against wiki. im not sure how my comment was taken as a deveation from the post. the rest of what i said was due to this particular thread i am more aware of the issues present with storing ashes (buckets) on the hearth. all of them. my opinion, the fire issue should be more of the focus.
Please dont take my slight against wiki as somehow personal to poster or wiki (i dont want ot upset it). I know how it works, and i use it from time to time. i know how the notion of a forum works as well. however if you search here as well as any other user edited document, then you will find mis-information, often times cited again and again. My comment was you shouldnt cite wiki rather the source it came from, that it. I blame the schools. you wouldnt quote a cliff notes version of a book would you?
My guess is that, a guess not an inflated exageration. i dont have anything to prove that 'improper ash disposal causes more house fires then CO issues' it was merely the asserition of my comments. if i had facts then i wouldnt say my guess.
seriously i have nothing against wiki. im not sure how my comment was taken as a deveation from the post. the rest of what i said was due to this particular thread i am more aware of the issues present with storing ashes (buckets) on the hearth. all of them. my opinion, the fire issue should be more of the focus.
Ok, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make since that info is right in the thread I wrote, about zinc fume fever. There is no mention of phosgene gas in that wikipedia deal, so it further confirms my point. I'm quite certain I would have died a LONG time ago if welding galvanized would make a deadly gas... I know I'm not THAT lucky haha!
Anyhow, in ANY case the ash can needs to be put outside, and of course agree with that.
Anyhow, in ANY case the ash can needs to be put outside, and of course agree with that.
Battenkiller said:
[quote author="NATE379" date="1296599872"]
In ANY case the ash needs to be put outside, I of course agree.
quote]
I'll second that. put in so fewer words then i can and obviously should.
In ANY case the ash needs to be put outside, I of course agree.
quote]
I'll second that. put in so fewer words then i can and obviously should.
NATE379 said:
I've welded galvy myself. With a breeze to your back there is no worry at all. Even holding your breath works fine for the small household jobs I do. But I never said anything about it making phosgene gas. In fact, if you followed the whole thread, I said on page two that there was no phosgene gas produced from heating zinc because phosgene contains chlorine, not zinc. The Wiki article was just to explain to others what metal fume fever is all about and how you get it. No "point" trying to be made anywhere, just useful trivia.
As for the ash, I've never had an incident leaving my covered ash can inside on the concrete floor next to the stove. I have had the lid blow off it when placed outside and the charcoal inside was going pretty good then. For me, the safest place to put it is right where I've been leaving it for 20 years now. Others will put theirs where they feel it is safest for them.
Good conversation about ash safety! My neighbor lit the yard on fire by dumping 3 day old ashes on his lawn. I admit I have been keeping my ashes in can with a lid on (small black can, it is painted with high temp black paint... bought it at Lowes, it was intended for use as an ash can) next to the hearth. But when the ashes appear to have live coals and the can heats up I always take them outside and dump them. I have a swamp near my house I dump them in and use a shovel to mix a bit. Perhaps I will stop storing them inside... but I think I am going to stick with my practice of emptying into the swamp muck... I do not have a concrete slab or anything on which to locate a big bucket... and as we know grass is combustable (I myself have had a yard fire while burning limbs from my tree felling, happens quick!) so I do not think locating a can on the grass is smart. Anyways, thanks again for the food for thought!
I envy you your swamp in a nearly snowless winter like this. I'm having a hard time finding places to dump ash buckets safely. Ordinarily, they go into a nice layer of snowbank just over my property line on the weedy edges of farm fields and I don't worry about them.
Ha! While it is useful for disposing ashes (and dead bodies), nobody envies the swamp in mosquito season! Actually the bugs by me are not bad at all, but they are going to be even less when I fill the swamp in! Since it is not a real swamp (not on any wet land maps, which by me are very detailed and it does not really have the normal swamp plant species) it is just a little mucky area created when they did the original site work of my house 20 years ago... so seeing as I legally do it I am going to fill it in and channelize a path for the water out. I just have another cord of fire wood to harvest out of there first then my yard is going to double in size and I will have light/ space for a garden AND my dog won't have a swamp to roll in. Sorry buddy.
then my yard is going to double in size and I will have light/ space for a garden AND my dog won't have a swamp to roll in. Sorry buddy.
Shoulda been clear I *only* envy you that swamp in wintertime. I'm blissfully nearly mosquito-free here in summer thanks to the almost non-stop breeziness of my location. But seriously, disposing safely of buckets of ashes mixed with small bits of potentially still hot charcoal on bare ground gives me the willies. I leave 'em in an outside garbage can for a week or more, but those embers can hang on longer than that sometimes.
Poor old dog!
Poor old dog!
eclecticcottage
Minister of Fire
I got a lovely vintage hod for Christmas tha resides on my hearth pad. However, it is only used as transportation-ashes are shoveled into it, and then out we go to the can (with locking lid) outside which is set on a concrete block. Then it comes back in, a little dusty but empty
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