Hearthstone phoenix Stove running cold

[ittym]

Hello:
This is my first time/season ever; using wood for heat.

I had a hearthstone phoenix professionally installed in november; and I have not been happy with the heat output. I have a steel chimney pipe running through a masonry chimney

Here's what I know

Wood quality: Seems to be Ok from an exchange with a co-worker/co-burner

Stove temp: With the primary control fully open the center soapstone barely gets above 300F (just put a thermometer on it)

The glass on the stove seems to be running fairly clean; I had some brown stains early that then disappeared

I see a fair amount of steam or smoke coming out the chimney early, but usually disappears once we are down to coals

Anybody's help is appreciated

Regards
Total Novice

 

[zzr7ky]

Hi -


I'm guessing wood isn't dry enough. I cut a few trees this weekend. dead, dry trees that scattered branches all around when they hit the ground. One red oak, one ash. They burn well enough, look great, and don't seem to soot anything up, but they just don't put out enough heat. stove temps 100 to 150 degrees F lower than the same type of wood from the saem woods. I tried it because the seemed 'dry' and I was hoping to split and burn (now), instead of split, stack, wait, bring back up to house, then burn... The Oak will wait until next season. The ash will be burned on warmer days this year.

My first year I had similar results. I now keep a couple years ahead on wood. It's working for me as I cut my own and have space to store it.

ATB,
Mike P

 

[swestall]

Are you burning the stove with the damper wide open for a while? What is the dimension of your chimney? Are you seeing the burn tubes igniting so there are flames that look like a gas burner?
ON the Hearthstone, you should be burning with the damper open until you get it somewhat up to temp: 375-450 or so. If the fire seems to be getting too hot, you still need to keep the damper open about 3/4 or so.
Smoke/steam coming out the stack would indicate you are not up to temp and it not burning efficiently.
If you are wide open and can't get it up to temp, then your draft is most likely not strong enough. You might have to burn it with the door cracked a bit to heat up the masonary mass so it will draft better for you. Of course don't leave it alone while you are doing that.

 

[AndyD1480]

Yeah, one big thing I've noticed is the quality of the wood. If it's a little unseasoned, the Hearthstone will burn it, flames and all (like normal), with the only difference being a lot less heat thrown from the stove. If you can, try some real dry wood and see if it makes a difference.

I dont know if its the new EPA stoves or the soapstone, but there does seem to be a bit of a learning curve involved with these things. Although, when you work that sweetspot, that stoves should really toss some heat!

 

[ittym]

Few more facts:

Installation:
The stove has a 45 degree output from which I have an adjustable collar that goes to a tee. The tee goes from a round 6 inch (exit dimension of the stove) to an oval 8 inch. I believe its an 8 inch ovalflex liner that goes all the way up the masonry chimney with a top-plate and guard. There is air between the chimney pipe and the masonry wall; but the top and bottom are insulated. The lenght of the pipe is roughly 14 feet.

About the thermometer:
I put the thermometer on the flue about 2 inches from the ext and I get just over 500 as the temperature read-out

The thermometer is a condor chimguard. It has a yellow, orange and then red zone; as the temperature increases. The orange zone starts and 280 and ends and 480 and above 480 its red.

About the wood:
As I said i exchanged wood with a woodstock fireview user; and he said he so normal performance on his stove with my wood.

About the operation of the stove:
On some days: I hear occasional metallic clicking noises from the stove.

 

[swestall]

Metallic ticking is pretty normal. At 8 inch you are on the edge fo the draft design the area info is: at 6inch is 28.26 and you are at 8 inch or 54.4 (A=3.14X R/sq)
When you say it gets to 300, question would be how long does that take? It can take a long time to get that stove up to temp, esp. depending on the wood. The Woodstock has a CAT so its going to burn differently and does not compare apples/apples.
If you really want to see what's up with the wood, get some dry pallets and cut them up and mix with your wood 50/50, that should tell you something.
On the Soapstone I'm more interested in the stove top temp right in front of the flue adaptor; it should be between 350-450 for decent heat and 500-550 (not higher) for high heat.
It takes quite a bit longer than with a steel/cast stove to get Soapstone up to temp. Sometimes I'll burn just below wide open where I get good secondary burn and yet it is burning hotter.
Also, need to make sure the air feed (that small square in the middle of the front floor) is clear of ash and debris as it injects air into the stove.
When you damp down, you are going to get cooler top temps but longer burns. In this cold I'm not damping down much below 1/8 open and maintaining 375-450. Soapstone sucks up the heat before it dissipates it, then releases longer after the fire dies down.

 

[ittym]

Couple more comments on my set-up and running

The secondary tubes do NOT look red hot to me and burns like a gas burner

I do not have a chimney damper; will the installation of one help me?

I will try leaving the door open and monitoring the stove temp and see if i get a different character for the secondary burn

 

[swestall]

The tubes don't need to glow, and they should look like a gas burner.
Not sure you will get better results by leaving the door open, when the fire is up to OK with the door open, then shut it and let it get up to snuff with the damper all the way open.
When it is cold it will have more draft than when above 30 or so. Keep the damper open and let it rip for a while.
If that does not work, you might not have enough draft so the installation of an inline damper won't help that.
With the damper all the way open it should get hot 400+ after an hour or so, it might stay there for a while, but will start to heat your space fairly well at that temp.
The soapstone does not get as hot as steel or cast.

 

[jbrown56]

Hi, I don't have a Hearth Stone, but I read that your 14' chimney is borderline on minimum height for your stove. Also the wood may not be dry enough as most oak takes two years to burn well.

Jim

 

[cbrodsky]

Hey, found the post!

Itty and I work together. I also immediately suspected bad wood, since it was purchased late in the season. I gave him a bundle of my "vintage reserve" seasoned ash that I personally cut and split a year ago so he could see how it worked, and I took a bundle of his home. I don't think either of us saw a huge difference - his wood burned just fine in my stove easily getting to 550. I also don't think my wood made a difference on his end. I think he may have been that 1 in 10 case that actually got good seasoned wood from the woodman

The idea of cutting up a pallet or trying some scrap construction lumber is a pretty good one to completely eliminate that question. If that doesn't get things hot, something is way out of whack.

I encouraged him to post here - esp. after hearing the top temperature was only 300. That seems way too low if you're trying to crank it up, and I really don't know enough about the secondary burn units to figure out what the issue is.

One thing we were talking about today - if draft is an issue, would insulating the liner potentially make a significant difference? And what does that cost? I've seen threads about this so many times on here and I get the impression it really helps people.

-Colin

 

[jpl1nh]

I agree with jbrown. the pheonix specs call for minimum 13' ht and prefer 6" diam pipe though it accepts 8". However with both wider pipe and just above minimum height, you aren't maximizing your draft. Damper works for a draft that is too fast not to slow so it wouldn't help. Once your stove is hot, what happens when you shut air down somewhat?

 

[swestall]

I just posted on another thread, but the info may be helpful here too. On the Mansfield, I'm actually finding that if I get it up to temp and cut the draft all the way down, the stove is burning hot and clean; hotter than if I set the draft at 1/2 or 1/4, etc. Not sure of why, but this is what is happening. I have a tea kettle on the top and I noticed it boiling, so I went and checked. Then I started to track this; it is definately the way it is.
Try this with the Phoenix and see if it works; but you have to get those secondary burners hot before you go; then all the way down and just keep an eye on it for a short time.

 

[Highbeam]

I reread the posts and see no mention of time. It takes a long time to heat these stoves up. Get a ripping fire going and keep it roaring with a healthy charge of medium 3-5" splits. Keep it roaring for a few hours to see if some of that 500+ degree flue gas will heat up your stove. Soapstone sucks a lot of heat. If you are only going through one firebox of kindling and smallish splits then that would easily explain your low temps.

The fact that the glass cleans up tells me that you are making a hot fire. Keep it hot for a few hours and see if that thermometer climbs.

I've never left the stove wide open for more than the first 30 minutes or so. Run at wide open throttle for the first half hour and then try and reduce the air setting watching and being sure to prevent reducing the fire. I find that I can go about 50% down on the air setting without slowing the fire much, you might be able to go to 75% of wide open. This lower air setting lets the combustion occur in the firebox and more heat transfer occurs.

 

[aurora04444]

Questions: Any tips on getting unseasoned wood to give some heat with 1996 Mansfield?
Why is so much charcoal being produced?

I've burned wood in old VC cat stoves, open fireplaces, and wood cooking stoves for 20 years while growing up.

Now I've got a 1996 Mansfield to replace an old 1976 VC a friend loaned me for last winter.
The Mansfield isn't heating well, and looking at other posts, I know one problem is the wood. It was cut in June and split in Aug of this year. I can hear it sizzling. The wood is ash, maple mostly, with a little white birch. I'm in Maine so this is good for hardwoods for our area. Oak is hard to get and expensive!

I'm trying to get a few new cords of seasoned wood from state heating assistance.

Problem:
I am producing half-full boxes of large charcoal about every day, so I can't get wood in. My chimney is over 30 feet, in a very windy area, but is an old unlined chimney with a damper for this stove. I know having an unlined chimney is unsafe, but I have lived always with unlined chimneys, never had any problems, and even though I would like it get it lined and reduced to the proper 6 inch flue size, I will have to save up for quite a while.

To start the stove: Often I have to leave the front door cracked open 1 inch for 15-30 minutes to get any fire going, even with lots of coals. If I close the door, the fire reduces to tiny flames and sometimes piddles out. Once the fire is going, if I leave the air lever open, it doesn't put any heat out, fire is roaring in the box and chimney is very hot, but no heat from the stove. So usually once it is going, I shut the air lever down 1/4 to start getting heat output from the stove.

Only way I can get heat, is to keep the 1/3 to 1/2 box full of hot charcoals in stove, try to flatten them out to put enough to insert three 1/2 split pieces north to south and maybe one small split in the front on top of the other three in the south to north orentation. It's all the wood I can fit in.

This should be simple. But I'm freezing!

 

[Highbeam]

Smaller wood. Split it down much smaller and stack it so air can get through. This is the compromise you need to make for using wet wood, also should reduce coaling issues but will require frequent reloading.

 

[swestall]

To summarize all this: you have to burn the stove hot, it will take an hour or two of a hot fire to get the stove hot; the temp should measure between 400-500+ on the soapstone at the place where the outlet is. Your unlined chimney has too much area to pull really well on the Mansfield. Yes you can get it to run somewhat, but you will be amazed when you finally get a stainless liner and put it in there. You could do this yourself and save a lot of $$.
A damper in the pipe isn't going to do much for you since you most likely aren't pulling enough on the stove as it is.
I also produce a lot of coals; what I do is to burn them down every few days; this is done by piling them in front of the air input right in the front of the stove middle of the window. With the air all the way open, they will burn and then you have to rake them forward until they burn more. Several hours of this will burn a lot of coals off. Then you have to shovel the ash out from the bottom shaking the coals off the shovel. The ash pan on the Mansfield is useless. You will get some small coals in with the ash; that's just the way it goes.
You have to get the stove up to 400 to 45o for the secondary burn to be effective. You will see the after burn; if you need to get use to this, when you think you have it burning correct, then go look at the chimney and make sure there is no smoke. The mansfield is very efficient and it will not put out any smoke when it is burning correctly.
It will not put out the kind of heat you are used to with a cast stove (or steel). Those stoves will heat up fairly quickly and then they will put out heat while the fire is doing its job.
The mansfield will take at least one burn cycle to heat up correctly and then you will have to keep it hot to keep the heat output going. But, it will also continue to put out heat for some time after the fire burns down; pretty much equal to a burn cycle.
Soapstone take some getting use to; and you will need that chimeny at 6 inches to get a good draft; not to mention keeping the creosote production down so you don't burn the house down. The liner is just as important as the stove to get proper heating and it will last a lifetime. Good luck and I hope you learn to enjoy this stove when you get it down you won't want anything else.

 

[aurora04444]

Hi, Thanks for response.
If I could split the wood into smaller sections, I would. But by myself right now, I can't do it like I used to when I was young. For the past 3 years, I have painful arthritis in my hands. But it is def something I will look at for the next wood I buy. And I guess I will have to buy a splitter. Any ideas on best spitters?
Thanks!

 

[aurora04444]

Hi swestall. Thanks for your response!

What do you think of the stainless steel liners versus the "Supa-Flu" method? I have seen the stainless liners for sale and think with help, I could do it. "Supa-Flu" is done by a company, but I have no idea how expensive it is. Also is the 6 inch flue going to work with other stoves, like the Hearthstone Equinox?

As far as the damper, it is a safety issue, anyways had one. Helped us during chimney fires in the past.

I do the raking and turning of the coals, turning them again and again, but by then my house is really cold. I agree, the ash pan is useless, and I collect the ashes just like you do.

 

[swestall]

I am not familiar with the Supa-Flu product. I am familiar with Stainless liners and feel they are a safe and viable solution to retrofitting unlined or dammaged chimneys. You can youse a heavy guage felixble or rigid liner and you will get great results. If you want an equinox you'd better trade up to it now before you reline the chimney because it has an 8 inch outlet and you need an 8 inch pipe. But, you also should make sure that your chimney can accomodate an 8 inch liner. I have an 8x12 clay liner that we put a rigid stainless down wrapped with insulation blanket; it would just fit a 6 inch ovalized a bit, an 8 inch would not have gone down. You may also have to use flexible at the bottom few feet (attached to the rigid) if you have any hard turns in the chimney.
As far as the coals go, with the VC stoves, I had just ash. With the Hearthstone, I am getting some coals in the waste ash; I don't care it is not that big a waste and compared to the cost of other heat (oil/gas) it is a small price to pay.
I really do like the Mansfield and have had many stoves over the years. You have to get use to it.
It isn't going to heat more than 2000 square feet, more or less, very well. If you house is bigger than that or it is not well insulated then you may need to shut off unused rooms to contain the heat where you are.
I am going to experiment with an inline damper later this year or next. What I'm going to try is to keep the supply air open a bit, keep the secondary burn going and to close the damper down to see if I can extend the burn time or increase the heat output. One thing, don't get the stove over 750 degrees; beyond that you can dammage it.
Try these things and keep me posted, I will help you as I can.
Go with a stainless liner if it is less costly; it will do the job and be safe for you. I don't think you will have much to worry about with chimney fires when you get this stove burning right as it won't be producing much creosote, or using a lot of wood.

 

[wellbuilt home]

Hello:
This is my first time/season ever; using wood for heat.

I had a hearthstone phoenix professionally installed in november; and I have not been happy with the heat output. I have a steel chimney pipe running through a masonry chimney

Here's what I know

Wood quality: Seems to be Ok from an exchange with a co-worker/co-burner

Stove temp: With the primary control fully open the center soapstone barely gets above 300F (just put a thermometer on it)

The glass on the stove seems to be running fairly clean; I had some brown stains early that then disappeared

I see a fair amount of steam or smoke coming out the chimney early, but usually disappears once we are down to coals

Anybody's help is appreciated

Regards
Total Novice

I think your wood is wet . Ive found that the wood burned in a hearthstone need to be very dry . I had the same problem. I started the season with wood that i burned all last year in my old cat stove and it burned fine . This year the wood has been sitting for a extra year and i thought it would be real good But i had problems . NO heat Now i cut the splits smaller and fill the fire box full , let it burn down so you have some coals and re full the box . keep the air open 1/2 way til you see 450o then back off on the air . A damper is cheep and it gives you more control . John

 

[Highbeam]

I hope the original poster of this thread is soing better. It has been a year.

 

[Highbeam]

I hope the original poster of this thread is doing better. It has been a year.

 

[aurora04444]

swestall:
I've researched chimney liners, seen many types, guage of metal, flexible ones, etc. What should I look for? Can a cleanout door be added with a liner and if so how?
Thanks!

 

[swestall]

Tom Oyen of the chimney sweep could specify a guage for the stainless. You need a heavy guage stainless liner. They come in sections that snap together then secure with screws. The flex liner (if you need it) should be used to make a turn in the flue, if you have a turn. If not, then go with all rigid. You can get an adaptor that will let you get to the liner through the clean out door. In that case you'd most likely have a T at the stove connection and then terminate with an adaptor at the bottom/clean out.

If your chimney is large, you might also want to consider getting the insulating blanket with metal outside layer to wrap the stainless liner with as you drop it down the stack. If you can do this it will keep the liner pipe at a hotter temp which will reduce buildup and you will get a better draft. When you install the liner, you want a sheet metal top that you install so it is flush with the chimney at its top; this will seal off the inside of the chimney and prevent any moisture from getting in. Then install a stainless cap over all of that and you will have a great installation.

If you have a local store that sells all this, go in and shop a bit. Then you can buy what you need from your store of choice when you are fully knowledgable on your options.

 

[aurora04444]

Tom Oyen of the chimney sweep could specify a guage for the stainless. You need a heavy guage stainless liner. They come in sections that snap together then secure with screws. The flex liner (if you need it) should be used to make a turn in the flue, if you have a turn. If not, then go with all rigid. You can get an adaptor that will let you get to the liner through the clean out door. In that case you'd most likely have a T at the stove connection and then terminate with an adaptor at the bottom/clean out.

If your chimney is large, you might also want to consider getting the insulating blanket with metal outside layer to wrap the stainless liner with as you drop it down the stack. If you can do this it will keep the liner pipe at a hotter temp which will reduce buildup and you will get a better draft. When you install the liner, you want a sheet metal top that you install so it is flush with the chimney at its top; this will seal off the inside of the chimney and prevent any moisture from getting in. Then install a stainless cap over all of that and you will have a great installation.

If you have a local store that sells all this, go in and shop a bit. Then you can buy what you need from your store of choice when you are fully knowledgable on your options.

Thanks!
Another question: my Mansfield is putting out a lot of smoke from the chimney. Some of this no doubt is steam from my wet sizzling wood! But I want to be sure my stove is running as efficiently as possible, although with a new liner in the spring, it will be much better. But is there anything else that I can check on my own right now? The re-burning pipes do produce the little jet flames. I hear there is some type of material that people say can break. It's above the firebox? Is this something I could check and replace?