Heating a 2900 sf 1977 Ranch House in Maryland

[WranglerBowman]

I'm looking for suggestions and people's experiences in heating a house similar to the one listed above. The house has a fireplace located on the side of the house in the basement, within 10 ft of an open stair case. I currently have a Buck Stove 28000 installed in the fireplace with a liner kit in the chimney and it's not really working as well as I had hoped for my needs. I burn long slow fires, while I'm at work and school, and it's difficult to keep the house comfortable by the time I come home. The stove is great all weekend long as I'm normally there to feed it every 4 hours and the stove cranks out air at 450 to 600d all weekend and the house is 72d when it's 25 to 35d outside. During the day and night throughout the week the house will drop to 64d on nights in the low 20's. I def want to upgrade to a more efficient stove so I don't have to clean the chimney so much and don't have to cut 4 or more chords of wood a year. I have just about decided on looking for a used Quadrafire 4300 stove and have been thinking about adding an inline cat to the stove pipe to make sure its working as efficiently as possible. I know the 4300 stove relies on secondary burn to reach EPA standards but adding the cat I would think would be best for long slow burning fires. I'm planning to reconstruct the fireplace so I can use a free standing stove and stove pipe outside the chimney fire box, but still use the existing chimney and liner to exhaust the smoke. Any suggestions or comments are welcomed.

 

[HotCoals]

Forget the inline cat in the pipe..won't help to heat your house much if any.
You just have a big house.

 

[begreen]

Agreed, if you want cat performance, get a cat stove. My first thought was to put in the Blaze-King King stove.

Still, heating from a basement can be a challenge. Is the basement insulated? How does the heat get up from the basement to the first floor?

 

[HotCoals]

I passed on suggesting the king..just because his house is so big and heating from the basement.
I really think this is a situation for a big tube burner not running on low burn most of the time..I dunno.
Warmer climate though.

 

[wkpoor]

Is the 2900 just the 1st floor or are you adding in the basement. If thats just the 1st floor then wow would that be alot of space and its sounds like your current Buck stove is doing pretty good. Not knowing all the facts my guess is a new stove isn't going to make you warmer but you'll burn much less wood.

 

[certified106]

I would say it sounds like a case where there is a need for two seperate stoves based on the size of the house and the fact it is a ranch. You will be able to even out the house temps and not run one stove all out just to keep the house warm.

 

[BrotherBart]

If that liner is 8" ya need to be looking at one of the big Buck cat stoves or a Blaze King. The big Buck will be easier to find a dealer for around your area. Reasoning for these two is the large fireboxes and still having the ability to somewhat gear it down in warmer weather. With the Buck you could run with it inside the fireplace and see how it does and then if you need to later you could move it out to free standing. Not an option with the Blaze King that I know of.

 

[HotCoals]

I would say it sounds like a case where there is a need for two seperate stoves based on the size of the house and the fact it is a ranch. You will be able to even out the house temps and not run one stove all out just to keep the house warm.

If he has 5800 total..I'm in agreement.
He needs to clarify that.
Even if it is 2900 total,you still maybe right!

 

[bluedogz]

FWIW, I am heating about 2600 sf on two floors with the old smoke dragon. It keeps up, at least now that I follow the advice I got here.

If you're heating from the basement, you might find that working on air circulation might help... my dragon wouldn't warm the house until I put a fan in the door of the stove room, and suddenly the whole house shot up 5 degrees.

 

[Stump_Branch]

I'm looking for suggestions and people's experiences in heating a house similar to the one listed above. The house has a fireplace located on the side of the house in the basement, within 10 ft of an open stair case. I currently have a Buck Stove 28000 installed in the fireplace with a liner kit in the chimney and it's not really working as well as I had hoped for my needs. I burn long slow fires, while I'm at work and school, and it's difficult to keep the house comfortable by the time I come home. The stove is great all weekend long as I'm normally there to feed it every 4 hours and the stove cranks out air at 450 to 600d all weekend and the house is 72d when it's 25 to 35d outside. During the day and night throughout the week the house will drop to 64d on nights in the low 20's. I def want to upgrade to a more efficient stove so I don't have to clean the chimney so much and don't have to cut 4 or more chords of wood a year. I have just about decided on looking for a used Quadrafire 4300 stove and have been thinking about adding an inline cat to the stove pipe to make sure its working as efficiently as possible. I know the 4300 stove relies on secondary burn to reach EPA standards but adding the cat I would think would be best for long slow burning fires. I'm planning to reconstruct the fireplace so I can use a free standing stove and stove pipe outside the chimney fire box, but still use the existing chimney and liner to exhaust the smoke. Any suggestions or comments are welcomed.

Let me see, house 1977, rancher, MD, 2100 sq ft with a 700 sq ft basement.


I need two stoves. Ones upstairs, the cat stove, for bulk of the job. Other is set to go on the "other" side of the house in the basement to get the whole thing, and when the temps really dip. One stoves been doing well this winter, but its been so mild.


Good luck in your search. Post some pictures and folk can really chime in.

 

[blwncrewchief]

You definitely need to post a little clearer information to be able to get some good recommendations from the members here. Longer burn with the newer, larger stoves are very attainable. BUT, what needs to be determined is how much heat for how long you need. No offence but I would take a step back for a minute on the Quad 4300. Not for any reason except than it is only a 2.4 cu. ft. stove. That would only be classified as a medium size stove and I just have to guess at this point but I don't think it's going to give you what you want. I'm am guessing that you are looking at the manufactures rating of 3000 sq. ft. STOP, DO NOT LISTEN TO THE MANUFACTURES SQ FT RATINGS! This is one of the most absurd ratings I have ever seen. 2.4 cu ft for 3000 sq ft might heat the house to 70 when it is 40 outside and you will be reloading every 4 hours. Seriously, give some more details and you will get some good advice from members here with real life experience. We have members with virtually every stove ever made, in every style house, in every climate. You have what I believe is a 4.5 cu ft stove now that is not doing the job. Even being a non EPA stove I really think your going to need to be in the 4 cu ft range with the new stove which pretty much puts you into a Blaze King King or a big Buck stove. Basically you need a stove you can get the same heat output but for a longer period. So if we figure that the new stove is twice as efficient (say 40% - 80%) you will get the same amount of heat out but for twice as long with the same amount of wood. Which means you would be in the 8-10 hour range with a 4 cu ft stove. Maybe someone has a different take. And welcome to Hearth.com!

 

[WranglerBowman]

To clarify my house has decent insulating and got all new windows that a fairly efficient 6 years ago, all double pane. The house has a 1440sf finished basement and a 1440sf top floor. The stairwell is 10ft from the wood stove and the house actually moves heat up the stairs well. If the basement is 80 the upstairs is normally 72. I have a Big Buck - Buck Stove that is probably from 1980 that has the 3 stage blower that is thermostatically controlled. This stove does fine when I'm home to pile wood on every 4 hours but I work 10 hours a day and go to school in the evenings so 90% of my fires are slow burners. During the week it can be difficult to keep the house comfortable because I'm not home to put wood on, that's why I'm looking for something that will be able to hold a fire for a longer time period and have a cleaner more efficient burn. The creosote build up is impressive from that old 28000 (Big Buck), due to my long slow burns. I have thought about making the 28000 a free standing stove and adding a cat to the 8in flue but the stove is so big it will really stick out in the basement. I know this will help with getting more heat out of the stove but the fire box is huge (4.4 cf) and the stove is not not very efficient with slow burning fires. I have looked at the Quadrafire 5100 but don't really want another in the fire place wood stove that's not going to give me the heating efficiency of a free standing. I also don't like the idea of having a power outage and because the blower doesn't work the stove barely puts out heat when it's in the masonry chimney, and run the risk of the stove overheating. I have been a little skeptical about the 2.4 cf firebox of the 4300 but have heard some good things about the efficiency and burn times, and it would be nice not have to use 4 chords or more in the average winter. Hope this helps people get a better idea of the dilemma.

 

[Wood Duck]

Based on the reports I read here I suggest you need a Blaze King 'King' stove. This is a really big cat stove that is perfect for long burns and takes an 8 inch flue. People report ridiculously long burn times ; apparently Blaze King isn't exaggerating when they claim 24 hour+ burn times. I do not have a blaze king and I don't personally know how well it works, but there are lots of satisfied blaze king users on this forum.

I still think you'll need at least four cords of wood per year, but at least a new stove should give longer, more unifirm heat and keep the flue cleaner. You'll need dry wood to use in a cat stove so I'd make sure your four cords are stacked and split asap. You are already late preparing your firewood for next year in a cat stove.

 

[mellow]

So you are looking for a rear vent free standing stove, I would say go with the Woodstock Progress Hybrid. But again this is ZONE heating. It will heat your downstairs nicely, but you might need to get another stove for the upstairs.

 

[gzecc]

To clarify my house has decent insulating and got all new windows that a fairly efficient 6 years ago, all double pane. The house has a 1440sf finished basement and a 1440sf top floor. The stairwell is 10ft from the wood stove and the house actually moves heat up the stairs well. If the basement is 80 the upstairs is normally 72. I have a Big Buck - Buck Stove that is probably from 1980 that has the 3 stage blower that is thermostatically controlled. This stove does fine when I'm home to pile wood on every 4 hours but I work 10 hours a day and go to school in the evenings so 90% of my fires are slow burners. During the week it can be difficult to keep the house comfortable because I'm not home to put wood on, that's why I'm looking for something that will be able to hold a fire for a longer time period and have a cleaner more efficient burn. The creosote build up is impressive from that old 28000 (Big Buck), due to my long slow burns. I have thought about making the 28000 a free standing stove and adding a cat to the 8in flue but the stove is so big it will really stick out in the basement. I know this will help with getting more heat out of the stove but the fire box is huge (4.4 cf) and the stove is not not very efficient with slow burning fires. I have looked at the Quadrafire 5100 but don't really want another in the fire place wood stove that's not going to give me the heating efficiency of a free standing. I also don't like the idea of having a power outage and because the blower doesn't work the stove barely puts out heat when it's in the masonry chimney, and run the risk of the stove overheating. I have been a little skeptical about the 2.4 cf firebox of the 4300 but have heard some good things about the efficiency and burn times, and it would be nice not have to use 4 chords or more in the average winter. Hope this helps people get a better idea of the dilemma.

I also have the Buck 28000. Having to pile wood in every 4 hours sounds excessive. I could do that with inferior fuel. The "long slow burn" statement has me concerned. If you get premium fuel, truly seasoned oak, hickory, locust you should be able to maintain stove temps for 6-7 hours. What is your door temperature during your long slow burns? What fan speed do you witness?
I get a lot of solar heating during the day. My house is probably the same size as yours, but my chiminey is in the center of the structure and internal.
From what I have learned here, a new stove will definetly improve your efficiency but heating from the basement is inherently inefficient.

 

[WranglerBowman]

If you draw a simple rectangle my fireplace would be located near the top right corner of the rectangle, on the shorter wall. Long slow burns the stove temp is between 200 and 350. By the time I get home from work is when it's at 200. I use seasoned Oak during nights and work days and use a softer hard wood like Red Maple during the weekend or any time that I'll be home for a couple hours. I don't know what the actual definition of burn time is, but when I use Oak I can normally get a fire going pretty easily 10 hours after I initially piled the Oak on. With long burn times if the temp drops below 45 outside the stove can't keep up, keep the house at 67 or above. During the weekends burning Red Maple/Oak Mix I normally load every 4 hours to keep the stove pushing out temps 500, to keep up with outside temperatures around 35 and the house will stay around 70 to 73. I'm guessing the efficiency of the 28000 is probably around 55-60% with new door seals and the chimney liner. New door seals made a huge improvement when I changed them last year. The fan speed is normally on medium during most of the long burns but will drop to low during the 1 or 2 hours of a 9 hour burn.

 

[begreen]

I'm sticking with the big Blaze King or as BB suggested, a big Buck 91 catalytic stove. One advantage of the Buck is that you can install it in the fireplace or freestanding. For now, you could do a fireplace install, but leave off the surround and put in a damper block-off plate to improve performance when the power is out.

How frequently do you have outages and how long have they lasted?

 

[gzecc]

If you draw a simple rectangle my fireplace would be located near the top right corner of the rectangle, on the shorter wall. Long slow burns the stove temp is between 200 and 350. By the time I get home from work is when it's at 200. I use seasoned Oak during nights and work days and use a softer hard wood like Red Maple during the weekend or any time that I'll be home for a couple hours. I don't know what the actual definition of burn time is, but when I use Oak I can normally get a fire going pretty easily 10 hours after I initially piled the Oak on. With long burn times if the temp drops below 45 outside the stove can't keep up, keep the house at 67 or above. During the weekends burning Red Maple/Oak Mix I normally load every 4 hours to keep the stove pushing out temps 500, to keep up with outside temperatures around 35 and the house will stay around 70 to 73. I'm guessing the efficiency of the 28000 is probably around 55-60% with new door seals and the chimney liner. New door seals made a huge improvement when I changed them last year. The fan speed is normally on medium during most of the long burns but will drop to low during the 1 or 2 hours of a 9 hour burn.

Sounds to me that you are using the stove well. I would think you may improve your situation with a newer stove in the basement. But again, the basement has significant drawbacks.
An upgrade is a lot of $. Not sure if it will live up to expectations.
I personally would first try to tweak my current situation by improving my fuel and stove usage. Get a load of locust or hedge. Has your oak been measured with a moisture meter? At what temp do you close the flue?

 

[WranglerBowman]

The Buck 91 Catalytic is what I was orginally looking at before I thought I wanted better efficiency, then I went with the Quad 4300 because it seems more efficient then the 91. I have a moisture meter and the Oak has around 20 to 25% moisture content, not totally dry. I generally keep the flue closed as soon as I see a good bed of coals. During weekends I normally get secondary cumbustion with the flue closed the and intakes half open on the 28000. i realize the upgrade is expensive but I've been looking for used stoves, a couple years old that people decided they just don't want to fool with wood anymore. I've seen 4300's and 91's for sale in the last month but want to make sure I make the right decision and this site seems pretty "wood burner" educated for the most part. I'm liking the Blaze King but don't see any for sale within 400 miles of me and there's no way I'm dropping 3g's on something that doesn't move (car, tractor, etc...). I think I operate the 28000 just about as efficiently as I can given that it's an old dragon and I'm not home all the time.

The power generally goes out in our area 2 or 3 times during the winter, sometimes for a day. Have been without power for 3 to 5 days though during big Noreaster events.

 

[begreen]

I wouldn't linger around marketing literature too much. Both are efficient stoves. I doubt in practice whether you would notice the difference. But I expect that a cat stove would be better suited to your burning habits and longer shoulder seasons.

 

[gzecc]

The Buck 91 Catalytic is what I was orginally looking at before I thought I wanted better efficiency, then I went with the Quad 4300 because it seems more efficient then the 91. I have a moisture meter and the Oak has around 20 to 25% moisture content, not totally dry. I generally keep the flue closed as soon as I see a good bed of coals. During weekends I normally get secondary cumbustion with the flue closed the and intakes half open on the 28000. i realize the upgrade is expensive but I've been looking for used stoves, a couple years old that people decided they just don't want to fool with wood anymore. I've seen 4300's and 91's for sale in the last month but want to make sure I make the right decision and this site seems pretty "wood burner" educated for the most part. I'm liking the Blaze King but don't see any for sale within 400 miles of me and there's no way I'm dropping 3g's on something that doesn't move (car, tractor, etc...). I think I operate the 28000 just about as efficiently as I can given that it's an old dragon and I'm not home all the time.

The power generally goes out in our area 2 or 3 times during the winter, sometimes for a day. Have been without power for 3 to 5 days though during big Noreater events.

I am able to close my flue at 300 deg. That is about 3/4 hour from a cold start. I think your leaving your flue open too much. Most of your heat is going up the chimney. If you have good dry fuel, you don't need to wait for a good bed of coals. You need to wait for good operating temps to ensure efficient burn. In the evening around 11pm I load my stove about 75% full (if its an avg cold night), leave the air and door open a crack, wait until its fully engulfed (20mins), then I shut it down. I then wait to see what the door temperature maintains. If it stays in the 300 range (for 15min), I'm off to bed. The wife gets up before me a little before 6am. The stove is usually cycling on an off by then. I am always amazed that all the wood is gone. Depending on how much wood I put in and the size of the splits, the stove is always warm to the touch still at 8am. Hope this helps.

 

[blwncrewchief]

Ok, just for comparison sake my 3.1 cu.ft secondary burn stove will maintain 500-600 degrees for about 6 hours on a full load. About 10 hours to 400* and 12 hours to 250-300*. This is on a full load of premium hardwood like Locust, Oak, or Hickory. You need to look at firebox size for comparison as to how much heat for how long you will be able to maintain that output for. It is pretty much as simple as that. The only other factors are going to be efficiency and how low you can burn it efficiently. As far as efficiency there is mostly going to less than about 10% across the board on new stoves, weather cat or secondary burn if you need to continuously run the stove at 400*+. A cat stove is really only going to take a noticeable advantage when you can run the stove under 400* for extended amounts of time.

You can also look at it like this. Wood and stoves are not magical and it is pretty easy to actually calculate what you are getting and what you need. The thing we need to guess at is how much wood you are loading weight wise and how efficiently your stove is burning it. We know wood gives approximately 7,000 btu per pound in real life. If we guess you can load an actual 3 cu.ft of wood in your stove and your wood weighs about 40# per cu.ft. your full load would be about 120#. 120# times 7,000 btu per pound is 840,000 btu's. If we figure your stove is burning that at 50% efficiency you are getting 420,000 btu's output from that load. If you have to reload that every 4 hours to maintain temp that is 105,000 btu an hour output from your stove. That would be almost out of the realm of even the biggest stoves on the market. Now if you are only loading 60# of wood every 4 hours than with the same numbers you would only be getting 52,500 btu's an hour output. That would be a much more reasonable number but either one or anywhere in between could could be your case. Best thing I can suggest is weigh your normal load for about 500 degrees and how often you need to reload that to maintain temps in the house. We can pretty accurately guess what you really need from there.

Where people get in trouble is trying to run a stove outside of it's designed range. That is where you get into poor efficiency, creosote, over fire damage, non adequate burn times, and most of the other problems we see here aside from bad wood, flue problems, bad habits, or the occasional manufactures defect. Peoples lack of understanding about heating and wood stoves coupled with manufactures information ranging from barely adequate and accurate to total lack of and fantasy land leads an unfortunate amount of people astray.

 

[mellow]

What size liner was installed and how tall is the chimney.

You need to measure your fireplace as well to see what insert will fit, the 91 requires a good size fireplace.

 

[WranglerBowman]

Ok full load I can maybe fit 60# of wood in. The 4.4cf firebox in the 28000 is stupid because, only about 3cf of firebox can be used because of the flue lever and the fact that if I jam pack it full of logs the front logs burn and the logs behind that just keep rolling into the glass on the doors. I wish I could get the stove to burn back to front so I don't have that risk. Many times I have opend the stove door only to have a burning log roll out on my feet, that's why I would really like a stove that load front to back so the logs can only roll to the sides and not into the glass door. When I say load every 4 hours I'm talking about adding 20# of wood (softer hardwoods) so I can maintain a higher temperatures, I'm not talking about reloading 60# of wood every 4 hours.

I have an 8in stainless flex liner in a chimney that's 24ft deep, from fireplace bottom to chimney cap. My fireplace is 36x28in but I'm not worried about fitting an insert in the fireplace because Im going to rebuild my fireplace to accomodate a free standing stove out in the room.

 

[Stump_Branch]

Go big, id go cat stove. The low burn ability favors the cats. And while it may only be a tad longer i think their burn times are better. My opinion.

Id say soapstone for the heat retention, but set up like yours id think a convection stove would be best for getting the heat up there.